TFGL2021 - S4 - Where does the agency lie? - NUI Galway Special (Copy)

Welcome to this episode of the Tech For Good Live podcast.

In this special episode we chat to the people behind GM-THINK. There’ll be talk of commissioning tech, data collection, and collaborating between multiple cross sector organisations. All of this is to ensure we can support those who need it most.

GM-THINK is a multi-agency database that lets services across Greater Manchester share information quickly and securely. The system makes it easy for organisations to coordinate the work they do with people who have multiple and complex needs.

Host Rebecca Rae-Evans is joined by: 
Abbie - Development Officer at Inspiring Change Manchester
Jackie - ICM Programme Manager
Neil - GMThink Co-chair
Grace - RealSystems Customer Success Lead.

Transcript

Bex: Welcome to another episode of the tech for good live podcast. In this special episode, we chat to the people behind GM Think. There'll be talk of commissioning tech, data collection and collaborating between multiple cross sector organisations. All of this is to ensure that we can support those who need it the most. If that sounds like your kind of thing, then keep listening. I'm Bex Rae-Evans and I'm joined today by a fabulous four person panel. I'll let you all introduce yourselves but Abby, do you want to start? 

Abbie: Yes. Hi, I'm Abby. I’m the Development Officer at Inspiring Change Manchester and I'm the local lead for GM Think. So a lot of my role is coordinating the local support for youth agencies and then just working with the GM Think partnership, just to make sure that we're aligning any changes and things with the initial values of GM Think. And Jackie I'll pass over to you. 

Jackie: Hi, I'm Jackie. I’m the Programme Manager for Manchester. I've been with the programme for over seven years now. I've worked in a variety of roles and my original role was the initial setup of GM  Think. So I've watched it grow over the years. Neil?

Neil: Thanks, Jackie. Hiya everyone, I'm Neil. I’m the Co-Chair for GM Think. So I sit on the panels with Abby and Jackie. I also do co-production for housing first as well. So I'm really the voice of live experience and the voice from the other side of services for people that's actually going through services and need services. So that’s my role. 

Grace: Hi, I'm Grace. Thanks Neil. I'm the Real Cystems Customer Success Lead. So I'm based at Real Systems. We're not-for-profit Salesforce consultancy and we're based at the charities St. Mungo's. So a homeless charity. So I work really closely with Abby, Jackie, and Neal just to ensure that GM Thinkworks as effectively as it can for all of its users. 

Bex: Well, thank you for joining us Abby, Grace, Jackie, Neil. Welcome to the Tech for Good Live podcast. I've been talking with Abby for a while now about this project and it just sounds, bear with me [laughs]  it sounds a little bit boring on one hand. Data, databases, systems. Partly that could be something that might be really boring to people. So why did we want to do a podcast about it? Well, also I just happened to absolutely love databases and data. So personally, I thought it was fascinating, but also I think these are things that a lot of charities are grappling with at the minute. The idea of commissioning kind of big technology products can seem daunting. The idea of collaboration, which I know you're doing a lot of and I can't wait to hear a little bit more about it and you know, the kind of data collection that you're doing. I think everything about it is spot on, how you've kind of come to the point where you are right now. It's a really interesting story. So thank you for joining us. And I think probably on that, a good place to start is, so what on earth is GM Think? Why are we talking about today? Why is it important? Jackie, do you want to tell us a little bit more about the background?

Jackie: Yeah. Sure. Inspire Change Manchester is a national lottery funded project. It's part of the fulfilling lives programs. There's 12 nationally across the country. And back in 2014, when the program first started, we were a partnership approach. And so we're working with three other partners and each of them had their own data systems. And what we realised early on is that, you know, we're trying to sort of bring together partners and working collaboration, but actually we were still working in silos and one of these areas was around data. And so we explored different options about how we could maybe commission a multi-agency system for the three partners. And so we did a bit of fact-finding and because we'd also looked at some research carried out by Making Every Adult Matter (MEAM) and back in 2014, there was a recognition then for a need for better information sharing across services. So we thought, well, maybe let's use some of this funding from the lottery to look at commissioning a multi-agency system. So we did a bit of fact-finding and we went down to London because there's a database down in London called Chain, which is used across the 33 boroughs for people who are experiencing homelessness. And we thought, well, if they can do it across 33 boroughs, maybe we could do something similar with the three partners that we had. So we modelled it on Chain, but it's much more than just a homelessness system. So although GM Think stands for Greater Manchester Tackling Homelessness Information Network, because of our programme, we work with people experiencing multiple disadvantages. So not just homelessness or substance misuse, offending, mental health, domestic violence. So we got in contact with Real systems. We talked to them about the possibilities of designing something that was a bit more bespoke. And so that's where it started the values, I think. And the reason why it's been a success, but I know we can talk about that a little bit later is because we had a project group setup at the beginning. So not only was it the providers of the system, but we had people who'd experienced services and had the information taken from them and, you know, they were sharing information with services. So they were telling us what hadn't worked for them and what would be better. And we wanted it to be more of an asset-based approach. So focusing on people's aspirations and the goals and their achievements, not just focusing on the support needs on what had gone wrong for them. And so that's where we started. And I think over time, what I think has been so valuable, is that the system is so dynamic and it evolves, it listens to the users and we can sort of shape the system. So it's not just an off the shelf system that, this is it, we’re commissioning it and you've got to use it. It was like, okay, what works for you? What could be better? It's evolved over the last seven years and obviously over the time with the three partners, Manchester city council are interested in using it for their rough sleepers team and more organisations got to hear about it. And I think now we've got over 20 organisations across Manchester. Well, what I think again is so good is that it's not just VCSC voluntary organisations. It's a cross sector. And we've got local authorities using it and it's really promoted that joint up working and that cross sector working. I know people say it's just a data system, but actually that's just the tool that's helped to promote that joint working and that information sharing.

Bex: Thanks, Jackie. So I guess, you know, all of this sounds really interesting, but what's the impact on the end user? Like what, why are we doing all of this? 

Jackie: Anyone else want to have a go?

Abbie: The idea behind it is that it prevents clients from having to retell their stories. It's having a centralised bank of information. So for the agencies that are on GM Think, if a client gets referred into them, you're not starting with a blank page. You're not having to ask people quite traumatic stories often. You can go on, have a little look, but also like interests are and also see what interventions have and haven't worked in the past. You get a bit of a better idea about what will work with them. And also, I guess on a broader scale, to be able to map people's journeys, to be able to see the wider picture of homelessness across greater Manchester.

Bex: I love that. I love the idea of it mapping aspirations as well as problems. That's something that I've not really heard before. The whole idea of retelling the story is something that has come up so many times in the work that I do with charities and with the service users. Why do we have to constantly tell this traumatic story? So that’s amazing. But I think that elevation that you've kind of added to it by not just looking at, you know, the problems and the challenges. I think that's really fascinating. Anyone else want to add anything about the background or more broadly before we dig into some of the details? 

Grace: I guess from the perspective at Real Systems and we worked with a number of different charities and local authorities across the country doing sort of similar things. So our background myself and my colleague Bobby who's the manager of the team both came from working on chain. So, you know, that's where our systems kind of came from. But I think one of the things that's so great about GM thinking, which makes it such a valuable project that we, that we really love working on, is that kind of person centred approach. And I think just that range of different organisations who all feed into it, you know, through the stair in group and things, which obviously we'll, we'll come back to talk about later. I think it's just, just very different, quite a lot of the other systems that we, that we work on with organisations, 

Bex: Actually, Neil, should we, should we talk about that now? Yeah, this has been really people- centred. And I know you're kind of the voice of lived experience, but she's a really interesting role. Do you want to talk a little bit more about that? 

Neil: Yeah, I mean the voice of the lived experience. I've been through all the services, so it's like a collaborative of you got different perspectives, you know, from the other side with me actually coming through these services that run GM Think. So I'm there just to give my perspective of the other side, if you know what I mean, to make it more person centered. And so it's about the person and what they want, you know, bring all that, you know, rather than services just being a one shoe fits all and having to jump through hoops to actually get the out that you actually need or want. Working with the people in these services makes it better because then you can get to the problems that services don't actually see, you know, that come from, from people that actually use these services. 

Jackie: Yeah. I think what's key as well, sorry, is that we realised the value of having, you know, people like Neil involved in the project and we wanted it to be a paid role as well. And I don't know if that's been done before, but when we looked to have a coach out of the GM Think steering group again, what Neil said is we wanted people who'd experienced services to really have their voice amplified and it wasn't just service driven. It was definitely about that needed to be that two way interface. And I think the fact that we have a paid role for somebody who can actually, you know, really steer the conversations around the steering group. And sometimes you have to bring people back to, okay, well, what is important? The client needs to be at the epicentre and I know services have their own sort of agendas and perspectives and constraints, but actually fundamentally we need to be listening to the people that we're trying to support and serve ultimately. And I think Neil is so great at doing that at steering group meetings and at the user forums. Sorry Neil. 

Neil: No, no, you just described me better than I could. Yeah, we didn't initially have that involvement. So my role, I think they recognized that, you know, we needed someone that we've lived experience to bring that to GM think, to actually bring the voice of someone that's actually been through it. 

Bex: Oh, thanks, Neil and Jackie. You've mentioned the steering group and user formula a couple of times. Does anyone want to tell me a little bit more about how they work, what works well about them, what's been challenging? 

Grace: So with the steering group, that's more of the strategic decisions made about GM Think. We actually quite recently introduced the user forum, which is actually a space for frontline workers. So I guess the idea behind it is that, you know, we've got the steering group which look at over the overarching goals for the system, but then actually we’ve got feed in from the people that are using it every day and are actually noticing the on the ground issues that want to be changed. I think they work really well together in the fact that we get both perspectives on that.

[cross talk]

Bex: Go on Jackie. 

Jackie: I was just going to say the steering group was initially set up with some of the organisations who invested in the system. So, you know, who were sort of commissioning the system and it was around JAG governance. And where GM Think was going to go, what sort of indirection it was going to. But quite soon, we realised that we did need to use a user forum, almost like a community of practice. Line workers were using the system and people, again, who were experiencing services come together and shape how the system evolved.

And I think that's been the beauty of it. I know it's, it's taken a few years to get off the ground, the user forum but it's been so valuable and having Neil and Grace and Abbie facilitate in that. All of the organisations come together. It's almost like people have ownership of it. Does it, does it, you know, there's buy-in from everybody because we've noticed that with other projects we've worked on again, if somebody's commissioning a system and says, okay, well we're commissioning it so just use it. People don't understand the reasons behind it and the ethos and the principles and values. And I think having frontline workers and people who are experiencing the service coming together and saying, yeah, well, we want to shape the direction of this. It's not just, you tell us to use it and we're going to use it. And I think that's what's unique about GM Think is having that space for people to be able to shape the direction, feed in where there's really good practices around information sharing, person-centred working but also then sharing where the challenges are and how you can mitigate against some of those challenges.

Neil: Yeah. The steering groups for all the services, you know, the people that run the services come together and they use it for the front line workers so that if there's anything, because they are using the system with anything that they feel could be added to it or take in a way that I was when I wasn't using right. The problems. So we've got voices from that side, from the people that are actually, you know, frontline workers that are actually using it. So that's what the difference between the two things are. Steering groups for the actual services that, you know, the around GM Think, they use the forms from the voice of the workers, as well as me having the lived experience as well. So that's been really good because then we’re sorting problems out as they come, you know, people want different things adding to their system. Then we can, you know, look at putting it on for them so we'll get the best from GM Think. 

Grace: One of the things I think we’ve found so positive about the user forum, as well, is those kinds of spaces in some situations can turn into, sometimes a little bit of a nitpicky environment, people picking holes and things, but it's just not been like that with the GM think user forum tool. It's been such a positive group and everyone's so sort of interested and passionate about it that actually, even though people might be bringing up things that they want to change, they do it in such a constructive way. So it's been a really great group to be a part of.

Bex: To follow up from that, I've got two, maybe tough questions putting you on the spot a little bit. So don't worry if you can't think off the top of your head, have any examples. So one, I wanted to know an example and I asked this because I do a lot of user research and often you’re  like, oh yeah, well I knew all this anyway. It feels like a tick box exercise because you know, I've worked in this sector myself a lot, and none of this is a surprise to me, but there's always one thing where you're like, I would never have guessed that. And so the value of working with users very closely is really important to me because even when I'm starting to doubt the value in it there's always something that comes up. So I wondered if there was, I'll give you the two questions at once, so you can start to mull it over. So that's my first question. Is there any examples that have come up where you've gone, we would never have known that unless we had this close connection with the user forum and the people using the system. That’s my first question. So I'll let you all have to think while I ask the second question. And the second question is, you know, you've developed this real positive environment in this user forum, which is really tough to do. I've come across so many other people in organizations with great intentions trying to do this sort of thing and it has become, as you say, Grace, this nitpicky environment. So I don't know if you can pinpoint exactly why you've been able to create this positive environment or not. I feel like that's a really difficult question because sometimes these things just naturally evolve, but, yeah, don't know if anyone has an answer to either of those? Abby, go for it.

Abbie: I feel like I could probably answer the second one. So ahead of setting up the user forum, myself and Neil had one-to-one meetings with the majority of the user agencies and just said that we want it to be a really honest, open conversation - what's working really well and what isn't working well but within the context of information sharing, because I appreciate a lot of people had maybe like little technical things, which could be easily fixed, but I guess we wanted to find out the problems with it. And yeah, I think actually it probably was the epitome of constructive criticism because the people we spoke to, there's a genuine want to use it and I think they can really see the value in using it. So yeah, in those initial conversations, I was a bit worried that either people would be really polite and just, oh, it's great. I love everything about it. Or just, yeah, really come down hard saying they hate it all. But actually I just think that everyone can see the value.  And I just think that we work with people that are so passionate about making our clients' lives better, that they can see why we're doing it. And I think actually a lot of key themes run throughout are things that are working well and things which aren't, which is easier to work on. Because I think, you know, if lots of people are saying it, you can see why, and it was never that nothing was working at all. It was just, it could be improved. So after the one-to-one meetings, me and Neil worked on just like what's working well and what isn't. And then we took it to the first user forum and we just said, here's the key themes? What do we all feel like is the priority? And we've actually then just been working on how to fix those and that's why we try and make the user forum very action focused. And I think that's something that we're all quite mindful of is that if we aren't acting on these problems, people stop telling us. So at each user forum, we like to start it with, these are the changes we've made so far based on your feedback. Just so, well, I'd like to think anyway, people are more likely to give their opinions if we actually acting on them. 

Bex: Quick follow up question on that before we move on to the example resourcing. So right at the beginning of the project, obviously you've had to resource your time on this and think about, you know, where you all spend your time. Was this something that you'd resourced in right at the very beginning or something that kind of came up and you were like, ah, we didn't really think that. This level of iteration from and needs from the user forums. So maybe it was a little bit tougher to resource, but yeah, I don't know which one of those or if it was something completely different. Jackie.

Jackie: Yeah. So I could probably answer maybe some of that is that again, when we originally Inspired Change Manchester and sheltered as the lead partner of this, we decided we would use, you know, a significant amount of funding from the lottery to commission this data system. So right at the beginning, we knew it needed resource. And I think, again, what I found with my experience of working with maybe other local authorities around data systems, you know, they're buying a product and then they, you know, set it up and then there's some, you know, super users who are then that's their second tab where they've got to then, you know, sort of like really champion that system. I think for us, we realise the value in actually resourcing a paid role. So a development officer role, who my original role was as the project officer to initially just roll out the system, implement it, train people and then job’s are gooden, but actually we realised that that role needed to continue, um, more funding into the coordination of it. And also then yeah. Resourcing and lived experience role within Neil’s remit. And so we've always, you know, put our resources into that because we see that that promotes the longevity of it. I think with a lot of data systems, again, if you roll something out and then users see their concerns being acted on or, you know, their frustrations or it's like, oh, that's not working. How can we make that better? Our priority at Inspiring Change Manchester has definitely been less resource that's because we want it to be fit for purpose. We want everybody's buying. Um, ultimately I know it's a data system, but it's a philosophy as well. The fundamentals and the key principles is around person centred and promoting that collaboration between public sector and VCSC organisations. And without that resource to, to keep on pushing that, then I don't think the system will be where it is now. And I think for anybody else thinking I'll look into doing something similar, they need to factor that in it. It is an ongoing resource intensive if it's going to be successful. 

Bex: Jackie, that's such a good tip. I see so many people build tech and then leave it and not think about that ongoing need. So amazing that you kind of already had that knowledge, that that was going to be a thing. And I'm going to ask you a little bit more about that in a minute, but kind of tech stuff, commissioning stuff. I also want to ask you about values stuff in a minute as well. But before we do, does anyone have an example? You've had some time to think. 

Grace: So, I guess one thing that did come up was that with it being a data sharing system, I think with GDPR and everything like that, people are scared about sharing data. There's a worry that they'll get in trouble, their share too much. Can I be doing this? So we're actually working on a piece of work at the moment, but the customer search option, which will sort of change the way GM Think looks in the fact that it will lock down records. So only people working with that person will be able to view it other than a minimum dataset. But once you say that you're working with that person, then you could access the records. It won't actually impact the client. In fact, there won’t be a big delay in accessing records. It's just that we know them for monitoring purposes, that only people that need to see it can. 

Jackie: And again, challenges with any data system for multi-agency sharing is that information governance is a big part of that. Well, you know, we were very careful. We took guidance from the, um, the land and from Chayn, especially, you know, around the introduction of GDPR back in 2018, and we worked, you know, with guidance and data protection managers, make sure that our legal basis for processing. And all of that was, you know, fit for purpose. But again, I think it's a cultural thing as well, because I think some organisations they're not used to sharing data and so they will not necessarily hide behind information governance, but there's such a caution there. We're trying to demonstrate. How it can actually be done effectively and in compliance but also to make sure that that person we set at the beginning is not going from service to service, having to retell their story. And also it promotes that joined up working and makes things more efficient and more coordinated. And there's no duplication. So I think that was something again of our learning that we worked through. But I do think it is a cultural thing. People are only just now starting to realise the benefits of information sharing. And I think somebody once said in one of our project meetings that, you know, safeguarding is so important and people's lives can be saved by sharing data rather than not sharing data. If it's done proportionally and there's justification for it.

Bex: That's brilliant. It's really good to talk about the data aspects of it. I think it's been very interesting from my perspective, because we talk a lot on the podcast about data and privacy and how the general public clearly doesn't care that much about data and privacy, because they're all on Facebook still [laughs] And I say that somebody is also still on Facebook and I absolutely hate them as an organisation but I'm trapped. Trapped in WhatsApp because my family only communicate in WhatsApp now. So either I cook my ties with my family or with Facebook and, uh, um, sticking with my family, unfortunately on that one. However, saying that, I've also seen when professional organisations go out to the public and talk to them about data actually, they're very cautious, which is actually a really good thing. I'm really glad that there's a caution though, around data and privacy. Uh, but it can, as you say, kind of maybe there's an over fear of it and when the need to share data is there, people can be really cautious about it. I'm glad they are, but it does cause some challenges when we are trying to do it for the right reasons. 

Jackie: Sorry, just one other thing and I'm going to shut up cause I'm talking a lot. Is that, yeah, we made sure that, um, with regards to privacy and privacy notices that when we were designing the privacy notices to give to clients, it was again, input from workers and people who’d experienced services and had information taken from them that they were front and centre in the development of the privacy notice. And it's also done in a very accessible way because I know a lot of privacy notices are full of jargon, you know, GDPR sort of legalise speak. But we want to make sure that it's really accessible. So anybody picking it up and the workers were really conversant in what that meant that they could explain to their clients why they were asking for that information, why it was being collected and what organisations would potentially do with it. And so we're really, really keen to, you know, constantly improve that information to the clients. And I don't know, Grace, you might have something to say on the sort of like the, the client information and the whole privacy side of things. 

Grace: I think you've covered it to be honest really, around the sort of feed into that from people who have accessed services. It’s just so important. And it's something that I think we see because obviously we wouldn't write those kinds of documents in the organisations that we work with but we can help them and assist with that and it's something that we often see doesn't get necessarily considered and they're very sort of, like you said jargon heavy documents quite often.

Abbie: If I can just add as well. I think even just the existence of the user forum, I think anyway, it may put people's minds at ease. Is that when you have a space where other people can come to and actually speak to other users of the system and then we realise that we are using in a similar way. The information is being used in the way it was intended. A and also one thing we're working on at the moment is like a comms document that outlines who's on GM Think and how the data is being used. So it's just those little things to try and reassure people that you are sharing data, but you're sharing data with people that have signed up to use it in a very ethical way that are being monitored on that. And also really wanting to use it in the way it was intended as well. And hopefully I think just having to use a form in those conversations is helping people with that. 

Bex: Thanks everyone. And I don't think I've ever said this before, but I'm really excited to read your privacy policy [laughs] Can't wait to see it. 

Abbie: We can share it. 

Bex:  It really, really, it sounds really usable, which is brilliant. You don't often see some good examples of that. So cool. All right. Well, I wanted to, when I first heard about this project, my first thought that would be a big challenge for you was the level of collaboration and the amount of people that are using it. I have tried to work on so many collaborative projects. Sometimes they’re alright. Sometimes they're really challenging. So I thought that was going to be a big challenge, but it doesn't sound like it has been. But I don't know if you can share any tips for collaborative working or any challenges that you have had and kind of go over.

Grace: I suppose it was one of the things that with GM Think, I guess, is that it's not all been done in one go, has it, you know, it's grown a lot over time. You wouldn't really want to get in a situation where you're bringing 20 organisations all in to use a shared database, all in one go. And I mean, I definitely think, even as new organisations come on board, there are still sometimes challenges around the tech. So, you know, they might want something that's not on the system already, you know, they might want to customised it for what they need. Sometimes you have to encourage people to remember this. Isn't just your system. This is shared across, you know, all these different organisations. If you want to put that thing on there in that way, then that's going to have an impact on all of those other users. So I think we always have to do quite a lot of reminding around that. And also, I think sometimes people just don't think about, is it actually possible? So Jackie, I'm sure can tell you an example of the magic button that it uses sometimes to think, you know, can you, can you put this magic button [laughs[ that users sometimes think can you put this magic button on here. That would sort everything out for me but you know, well, we're maybe not that good yet.

Jackie: Yeah. Like Grace said, it's evolved over time. And I don't think anybody in their right mind would think that we're going to roll the system up to twenty organisations. Let's all just crack on and use it. It's definitely been a process, but I think having the steering group and having that governance and also we've developed a partnership constitution, which although that’s separate from the legal sort of information sharing agreement, the partnership constitution, people sign up in good faith and unwell to adopt the principles of GM Think and the underlying sort of ethos. So I know somebody mentioned it to me as GM Think as a philosophy. It's a data system, but yeah, you know, that philosophy, um, on dependency and I think the willingness I'm making sure that any organisations that want to come onboard, they need to fulfil that criteria. If you're working with the same cohort of people that other organisations are working with, it's not just oh that’s a data system, we could use that as a case management system. It's more, well, how can the organisations of GM Think can benefit the wider group of people who may be accessing support and again, stopping people retelling the story. So any organisations that adopt in or come in on GM Think, they do need to fulfil the requirements and also evidence how they work in person centered ways. And it's not just, oh, well we want a data system because we want to collect all this intelligence and press a button and get this report that tells us XYZ for our funders. And I think that's why it's been so successful, but it has had its challenges. And I think it's about balancing that and being really mindful about different organisations, priorities or fundamentally what would keep bringing it back to as part of it stayed in group. And I think Neil could probably say, this is bringing it back to how is it going to benefit the clients.  Services have all got their funding, their KPIs or whatever it might be, but let's bring it back to how is that going to benefit the client?

Neil: Yeah. So it's about the person who is at the forefront all the time. I think one, for me, one major thing that stops, you know, services working together and being more joined up really. All the red tape, policies and procedures, you know, gets in the way of working collaboratively. I think that's been one of the major things because they have their own policies and procedures and sometimes they don't match with our working in a person centered way or how our co-production works. We’ve got to be more flexible and more open to work. Honestly, not a lot of services do work in that way. It's changed a lot over these past few years and it's gotten a hell of a lot better but there's still a lot not doing it as well. So I think that's a major blocker that stops people actually coming on to GM Think. 

Bex: Neil, thank you. I think that's really, really fascinating because of course you'll attract partners who naturally understand your principles and get it, and they're going to be the easy ones to work with. But then there may be people who haven't worked in this way before. And that's actually really, really interesting because you're probably put in a lot of effort to bring them on board and they’re learning a whole new way of working just by signing up to a database as they think that's what they think that doing. But actually, you know, there's all of this other stuff that comes with it. Have you seen examples of that? Has that happened with your organisation. 

Jackie: I would like to, I don't know if this is controversial, but I'd like to say that when we started off with a implementing GM Think, well, M Think as it was then before it went to Greater Manchester and with our partners, there were certain providers who always worked, you know, very traditionally, um, silo work and wouldn't share data. And because of our Inspired Change Manchester partnership, they were sort of obliged to use the system. And we said, you can still use your own system if you want. But for the sort of the cohort of people you're working with in our program, you need to use this multi-agency system. I know the time people could see the benefits and how it was a bit different. And so I used to think it was almost stealth like, you know, we would go in and say, under the guise of a data system, but because of the way it was designed around aspirations and achievements and goals, and very much around the person, people started to change the way they worked as well. So it wasn't just about, oh, well, I'm going to take this information and I'm going to go away and I'm going to record it. You know, the person doesn't need to know about that. Part of our training is always about however, you're recording information, whatever you’re recording, always be mindful that that person could be sat on your shoulders because they can ultimately see all of the information that you're recording. And I think for us, that was a real sort of drive to make sure that, um, and I think just one example is that people used to have risk assessments done to them. And we worked very hard in thinking, well, how can we have that sort of like that two way conversation with people and know about what is important to them around their safety and risk. And then, so we designed, again, part of the project group with the information sharing around designing up a safety plan. So that is around different areas of people's lives about what's important to them and how they can keep themselves safe, as well as the people that they're working with safe. And by adopting that approach again, with just our program, we then made sure that that information was on GM Think and so people could go on and record safety in a very different way. And at the time, all the other organisations that were using GM Think have started to adopt the safety plan, which I think is a massive win, because again, it just changes how people work with people. It's not, you know, okay, well, I've got to talk to this person and find out what's important to them. And not just assume that I'm doing a tick box of risk. And I think this, and I think that.  So I think that fundamentally again, although just a data system, it really is influencing how people are working with people accessing services. 

Neil: Like Jackie just said, obviously this is working with these people. Can't share information, but they're working with the same person and they all went to different services. I mean, to retell the story over and over and over again. So, you know, working collaboratively like GM Think does actually stops that from happening. Having to retell their story. From my perspective, they’re saying they can’t share data but I'm giving everyone the same information, you know, in every service I access. So it contradicts itself. GM Think stops that from happening. People don’t have to retell their story, going to another service, say the same thing. And even some of the questions, you know, I'll give the perspective about how that person feels, just being asked certain questions. I’m down on my luck as it is. I've not got much self-worth, no confidence, you know, I feel really vulnerable and you're asking me these really personal questions that bring back trauma, you know, and it's really asking all that in every service. So it stops that. It stops that from happening and retraumatising these people that every service is working with the same name to help people, you know? So they have the same goal, the same principles, you know? It's to work together. Rather than working on their own, not being able to work together. GM Think enables them to work together. 

Bex: Such a good point, Neil.  You’re agreeing to tell multiple people aren’t you, as the client? So where does the data challenge come in there, when you're like, it's okay. I'm okay with you sharing. I'd rather you share things with other people. It's funny, working in this space, we're all trying to do the right thing all the time, aren’t we? And it can be really challenging as well, when dealing with people's very personal data in this instance and you want to make sure that’s safe and your first instinct is data safety beyond anything. But actually in this instance, you've got data safety retraumatizing people and both of those are very bad. So actually data can be kept safe. It's kind of easy. Retraumatizing people is also kind of easy and they work together like, so yeah, it’s a really interesting point. Yeah. I have got one eye on the time and I'm really having a great time talking to you, but I'm going to move on to technology, talking about technology. So I've worked with so many charities, particularly over lockdown using technology potentially for the first time, commissioning big pieces of work with technology. Jackie, it sounds like you already have some experience with this or maybe not. I might be jumping to conclusions here, but the things you're saying, you sound like you know what you're talking about. So that's like a really good starting point to kind of commission tech before, but yeah how did that go? Talk about the tech.

Jackie: Well, I think I'm going to sort of more or less put this onto Grace actually, but yeah, when we commissioned it and obviously Real systems are the experts and they're the providers of the system but I think the beauty of, from my point of view of GM Think is because we've got this long relationship now with Real Systems. And again, part of my previous role, we found that actually I would work really closely with the Real Systems team. It's the role that Abbie's currently doing, but  it's almost like you've got that sort of the service provider and they do all the tech and the backend, but actually having that from face and understanding how all of the organisations use the system, you know, in the localities working together. And so the developers can understand what the requirements are but we’re actually, Abbie's role now and mine previously, was understanding how it worked on an operational basis. So having the two together, I feel has been a real good partnership. Grace, if you want to expand on that.

Grace: Yeah, definitely. I agree. And I think one of the quite nice things, as well as it's not the kind of situation where, you know, us as a provider of the system are just being told what someone wants on the system, you know, don't get much background, can you change this for me? Can you add this field or whatever? Me and Abbie would often go to things together. So we're both getting that understanding.  Same with the user forums. So I'm there to hear about the issues and things that come up in that space. So it's not just all being handed down. You know, we doa  lot of the work collaboratively and then we'll look at a solution together. Quite often before we even put the solution in place, we'll again, feed it back to the user forum and see if that would work. There's that collaboration, which is really valuable there. Abbie, you’re about to say something.

Abbie: [laughs] I’m just nodding along intensely.

Bex: I think there's a few things in there about what you said. Like choosing a partner that you trust and then trusting them and involving them, instead of just seeing them as like an external IT partner that you just shout every now and again, yeah, truly immersing them into this has been something that's been successful for you.

Grace: I think one of the really important things is that front facing on the ground support, which we obviously already touched on a lot because you do get quite a lot of, you know, support workers and staff working in services where they do that job because they love to help people. They love to support people. They don't do it because they like to enter information on a database. It's not normally one of someone's passions if they've gone into that kind of role. So I think having that, you know, front end support, so Jackie or Abby, to be able to really help people with that has been really invaluable. There is a resistance from people, but I think if you can show them through the user forum and things, show them the real value of them spending the time to record some of that information. And, you know, some of these people might have to record information on three or four different systems because they have all their own internal systems, but then they've obviously got the shared one as well. So I think it's really about highlighting why that's so important and what the benefits are to the people that they’re supporting as well. 

Jackie: Absolutely, I do feel that it is making sure that the people over on the frontline who were actually, because of that information, they understand the benefits and how it's gonna benefit them and the clients that they're working with. Because like Grace said, people who potentially go into this line of working or they do it because they care about people and they want to make the best and it's not about sitting in an office entering data, but actually when they understand the sort of principles behind it and the bigger picture, because I feel that sometimes, you know, again, organisations or commissioners make these decisions and it's not always fed down to people who were having to do the work. And I think for us as a program anyway, our ethos is always about making sure everyone is fully informed and taking feedback and acting on it and if we're saying, oh, we want you to use this and we want you to record in a certain way, we want that two way conversation. It's definitely not a top down. It's definitely a bottom up approach. And I think that, again, is why it's maybe been a lot more successful than it could have been. Abbie?

Abbie: Yeah, I completely agree. And I think the fact that GM Think is constantly evolving. I think probably once a week, we're making changes to the system based on what users want, because I think we appreciate that we want it to be as effective as possible so workers aren't spending all their time going through a clunky database and spending time loading. They can be on outreach, talking to the clients. And I think from the user forum talking about it is that there's these little changes, which sounds like really small things, but actually it makes such a difference to the workers workloads that they can get that time back. And I think that it is really rare to have a system that is really flexible because I've never contacted my IT person before saying, can you just change this round for me to make my life a bit easier? And I think we are lucky in that respect. That Real Systems are so efficient and they're making changes for people.

Jackie: Can I just, I know we’re mindful of time, but I just wanted to say one thing. That the fact that the GM Think and the Salesforce platform enables you to record information on a mobile say a tablet, um, is that frontline workers prior to the COVID pandemic would go with people to things like homelessness presentations, where they may be sitting around for four or five hours, but they would then sit with the person and actually start inputting onto GM Think. And the person could sit and talk about it too. And I think that's been some feedback from our frontline workers. Is that the beauty of being able to do that and involving the person. And actually meaningful use of time while you're waiting for different appointments has been really, you know, what the frontline workers have been saying is a good thing for GM Think too.

Bex: Again, mindful of time. And I want to quickly tell us about what's next in the future before we wrap up. But I have so many more questions about databases because obviously, yeah, there's a really big issue, isn't there, when, you know, you have to fill out reports. So your funders for the local authority uses a different system for this system, which is very much user centric and probably the most important one [laughs] and there’s probably something to be done there about integrating these things and you don't have to have multiple entries in the same system, but that's another conversation for another day, I suppose, because we are running out of time. So I know that you're collecting a lot of data here and not only is that beneficial for frontline workers, clients at the front end of this, they’re getting better services because of it, that's ultimately what we're trying to do. But as part of that, also in a more long-term way, you're collecting more data, uh, in a more joined up way, which is obviously brilliant. And I'm really excited about where that might go. And I know you've talked about wanting to do more work around standardising that and getting more information for the bigger picture. That's one of the things you want to do in the future. You can talk more about that. Is there anything else you want to work on?  What's next for GM Think?

Neil:  Well I think for me, at GM Think, what I want to work on more was the root causes of what leads people to homelessness, because there's more factors than what they're actually recording and not just asking the question is like, have you sofa surfed in the last six months, you know, get to the root cause of why people have been sofa surfing and you know, what add to the different types of stressors, you know, that leads to becoming homeless in the first place.   So if you can get to it in the early stages, you can actually prevent homelessness before it even starts.  So that's one thing that I want to bring to GM Think is to look at the root causes for why people becoming homeless in the first place and not need to repeat or going through services time and time again, in and out of homelessness.

Bex: Yeah, great stuff. That's what we all want, isn't it really? Anyone else, the future of GM Think? 

Jackie: I think I'd just like to say that we've collected quite a lot of information over the years now. I think services are at a place where we've got that sort of collective oversight and it's about what we do with that information? Because project specific people are acting on the information that they're gathering through reports to the funders and maybe shaping service delivery and we all know that there's gaps in services, you know, across. And I think for us, we've got quite a good intelligence of, you know, people sort of in and out of temporary accommodation. What's worked, what's not worked. And I think it's about drilling down now into the sort of the details and not just providing stats because we've seen X amount of people on the streets in this quarter, but it's like Neil said, like where were they before? What resulted in that? And how can we do something about the gaps or just commissioning smarter and more targeted. And just a quick example would be, for instance, Manchester City Council, you know, the Rough Sleepers Team. And the amount of people that they were seeing with high mental health support needs and they were able to evidence that through not just anecdotally, but through data, through GM Think, to be able to say, we need some more support within our team. And so they now have mental health practitioners and it's those sort of things. And I just believe that yeah, if we were to work as a collective through the governance, the GM Think steering group and the governance pooling that information together, it would all be aggregated, but be in a sort of similar position as I suppose Chayn does with the Greater London Authority. To be able to provide a snapshot of GM about what's happening with people across services and how can we identify where the gaps are and do something about it. And not just all know that it's happening, but we've got data as evidence alongside all of these really rich case studies, um, to be able to present, this is what we need to do next.

Bex: Jackie. I'm so excited about GM Think as it stands and the future of GM Think. You've all done really well to excite me about it and probably the listeners as well. We are out of time. I'll post links in the podcast description. Uh, if anybody wants to find out more about GM think, but for the listeners, is there a link that anyone can go to to find out more details?

Abbie: So we have got the ICM website, but if you did want more details, you can always email us and our inbox. So it's ICM at shelter dot org dot uk. And we can just pick up any queries about that. 

Bex: Thank you so much, Abbie. And thank you Jackie, Grace and Neil for joining me today. Listeners. I hope you had a great time. I did. If you want to give us some feedback or thoughts on this episode, email us at hello at tech for good dot live or over on Twitter at tech for good live. Thank you very much.  Thanks everyone.

Grace: Thanks