TFGL2021 - S4 - Ep 3 - Playing Politics

Welcome to this episode of the Tech For Good Live podcast.

Joining Bex today is Tech For Good team member Fay Schofield.

Our guest is Marie Farmer - Founder of digital health app Mini Mealtimes, an app that helps parents track the nutritional info of the food their children are eating so they can make informed decisions about their families health.

Transcript

Bex: Hello, nerds. Welcome to another episode of the Tech for Good Live podcast. It's a podcast all about using technology to have a positive social impact. It's fun. It's friendly. It's frustrating but it's always super professional and polished. Our one regular listener will know that that's actually a hilarious joke. Today's show is shaping up well. We'll be talking about far-right people continuing to be awful. Charities are demanding that they have a charity commissioner that is neither politicised or, you know, evil. We'll be chatting about that. There's a new fair phone, Cozaar. And in news that will surprise everybody, Facebook are awful, harmful and doing it knowingly rather than just due to incompetence, so says a whistleblower. All that and more coming right up. Joining me today. We have Fay Scofield back on the podcast. Fay, if you, if you had to have an actor follow you around and narrate everything you're doing, but you can't talk to them, who would it be?

Fay: I can't talk to them. So they're just like, narrating my life kind of thing.

Bex: Yes.

Fay: Oh my God. That's a really good question. Either Samuel Jackson, if I was like wanted my life to be like an action film. Or David Attenborough. I know he's not an actor. I don't know. That's a really tough one.

Bex: It's a tough one. And I didn't pick mine. The person who writes our intro picked mine. So I'm very lucky and don't have to choose. But I'm Rebecca Ray Evans. I've started a new job this week and there is building work happening in my house right now. So I'm definitely in the right headspace for this podcast. If I had an actor follow me around to narrate everything, it'd probably have to be the original Sabrina, The Teenage Witch, because that was fun. But also, I don't think she's getting much work these days, so she's probably available. Uh, thanks Johnny for writing that. I agree. That's fine. That'll do. And we have a guest.

Fay: That's really hard. That was it wasn't it? What's the name of it?

Bex: That's it yeah. Melissa. Because didn't she also do that other TV show called, like Melissa something or other, what was that?

Marie: Clarissa.

Bex: Clarissa! Which is weird because she's called Marissa. Thank you, Marie. We have a guest. Marie Farmer, Founder of digital health app, Mini Mealtimes. Hello. Welcome.

Marie: Hello. A clear Melissa Joan Hart expert.

Bex: You do not have to ask the intro question, answer the intro of question, but if you do have a particular actor that you'd like follow you around narrating your life, feel free to let us know.

Marie: Oh, I don't know. I think I'd choose um, Tom Hiddleston, I really like his voice.

Bex: Good choice.

Marie: I like a dramatic flair.

Fay: Yeah, okay, can I be in your movie? And then I can look at Tom Middleton whilst he's narrating your life.

Marie: [Iaughs] I think he likes cats as well. So that's always a good thing.

Fay: Plus sign. Plus sign.

Marie: I don't know if that's true. I have not fact-checked that. That could be a lie, but you know, again, I'm the expert.

Bex: We'll go with wherever you say on, on people liking cats. I'm always up for that. So, uh, that is now, that is now truth and fact. Uh, Marie, tell us more about Mini Mealtimes. What you do, your background. Tell us what you want to tell us.

Marie: Well, other than the expertise I've already displayed, I'm the founder of Mini Mealtimes which is, obviously, a tech for good business that aims to basically just help parents monitor their children's nutrition and just be healthier. I'm really, really passionate about children's nutrition and the health of our nation. I think that's incredibly important. It's something that needs to be invested in. And I was inspired to start my business a couple of years ago after I had my first child and I became one of those like very typical cliche kind of middle-class mums, who was like, I'm on maternity. The only thing I think about is my child. I was so focused on him but then once I started researching food and nutrition and kind of all the products that we buy and eat and source from all over the world and kind of consume in the UK, it just became such a big, I realized the, kind of the scale of the [00:04:00] problem and how unhealthy and misinformed a lot of the people in this country, myself included at the time as well, and how overwhelming it seems. And I just wanted to create a space and a service that answered those questions and kind of tried to solve that problem. And that's what we've been doing. So we launched Mini Meal times last year. Was it last year? Again, time has no concept. We launched just before the pandemic hit, basically. And, uh, yeah, we've been just trying to make the biggest impact we can in the child nutrition space. And that's what I've been doing since then and it's really exciting and I'm really excited to be on this podcast.

Bex: Ah, thank you for joining us. We're excited to have you. I think it's a really brilliant product and really needed. There's a lot of, I guess, like i've not had a kid myself but a lot of people I know have just started having children and it seems just like really overwhelming. So I guess like any support is super helpful and uh, yeah it looks like a really well-designed, uh, and I'm really picky about this sort of stuff, but I really like it. It's dead clear. Like here's what you should be feeding your kid. Here's like nutrition reports and I guess, I don't know if you know this, but while I was looking at your products, I was really interested in, I wonder if sometimes people have, have a child because they're so concerned about getting everything right with, for that for their kids. Is it like the first time they might really consider nutrition more seriously? Because the kid kind of like prompts it and then they're like, oh, I'm not really looking after myself either. And nutrition is this big complex thing. I don't know if you've come across that, but that feels like a catalyst for change more widely.

Marie: Yeah, I think so. Because what tends to happen after you have your kid is you actually end up the parents and not neglecting their own health for awhile because they're so focused on this like human being that they've got to keep alive and you're like, I love them. I want the best for them. And I want to do everything right. And you end up neglecting yourself. And what you just said, I've spoken to countless parents who go, yeah, I really need to kind of get it together. And I just go to. It's fun. Just learn and grow and make mistakes and you're doing the best you can. That's kind of what I always try to tell them. I always try to reassure them. Um, but yeah, it's just. It also makes sense as well, because as adults, you, even, if you don't have kids, a lot of people also on the flip side get super into health. The other part of the parents are like, you know, training for marathons. They're like super healthy. And then they have kids and they just like completely transfer all of that on to their kids and want their kids to grow up in that environment as well. So there's definitely two types of parents that use the app. But, um, I always say I try to build for every lifestyle, every kind of personality, because you know, it's all, it's all a mixed bag, isn't it? There's never like any one specific type of person. But no, I want to thank you for all those lovely compliments.

Bex: No, it's great. And something else I want to point out as well, it's something that we have liked to complain about a lot on this podcast. This is like a really important thing. It's health it's, you know, medical in some ways. Uh, but you've got a load of experts on board. I think some people build apps without really getting the right people to contribute to it. But yeah, from what I've read I believe that you've really done that well, and you've got dieticians and nutritionists on the team as well.

Marie: Yeah, that was so important to me and that was one of the things that took us so long cause we ended up spending about a year and a half researching it. Uh, well I think we, I did myself. Because I wanted to get it right as much as I could first time, because I don't have an actual medical ground. My background is in project management and public relations. So I, you know, I've never claimed to be kind of a dietician or nutritionist or anything like that. But I leave it to the experts and I listened to them and I have useful words and that's so important because another thing that inspired me to make it was there's just so much misinformation online. There's so many people giving advice that don't know what they're talking about. And sometimes it's fine, but like a lot of the time it can be really, really harmful and dangerous. Um, and I was like, yeah, let's get the experts and put them forward and listen to what they're talking about, because that's so important, especially when it comes to children. You know, if a 25 year old, 35 year old wants to like Google, whatever and live their life like that, then that's what they're going to do. But when it comes to kids, it's really serious. It's really important. And I think just tackling any kind of misinformation or misconceptions is always a good thing.

Bex: Yes. I love that. On a little bit of a different note. To start up in a pandemic, how's that? With a kid! How's that all going? How's it been going? Are you happy with where you're at?

Marie: Yes. No. Like, it's crazy. As I said, we launched like just before the pandemic hit. So we had this like really lovely, fancy launch party in central London with like, you know, fancy cocktails, little snacks. And we had lots of people coming. It was really nice. I had all these plans for the beginning of 2020. It's gonna be great. Going to be the best year ever and at the end of the year I was like, oh my God [laughs] on a battlefield like smoking basically. But, you know, I think it's made us, I can't think of the word I would use. But, um, tougher, I guess, because there's so much that we've had to deal with as like, you know, literally not being able to go outside for periods of time and like worried we're all gonna die. And on one hand, it's been good for us because people are more aware of the health and they're thinking about the food that they eat and stuff. So in that sense it's been good. So we saw a surge in use, especially during peak pandemic when people are like completely obsessed with their health. And even at the time I remember I was saying to people, like, I think it's wonderful that you're really, really focused on this, but have some perspective, you know, relax. This information is here. It's not going anywhere. And so that's been careful, but yeah, running a staff in general is really, really difficult. There's so many Kind of things that you have to learn as you go along and I didn't study start-ups. I didn't do an MBA or anything. You know, I used to work in fashion and advertising, so it's completely different world. So having to make new connections, new contacts. Learning new skills so that you don't run your business into the ground. Growing, talking to customers when they're incredibly stressed out is, um, takes a lot of patience and expertise. You know, making sure that you're not taking advantage of people. You know, you're going to be there for them. It's like walking on a tight rope. It really, really is, but I love it. And it all sounds horrible, but I kind of find. I absolutely love it. And recording this podcast now, um, and I've been up since 5.30 doing so much work. And then I'll probably be up later tonight doing the same thing or it's kind of 24/7, but also flexible as well, because I'm going to go on a walk in two hours and have a picnic. So even though it's cold, but it's sunny. So yeah, running a startup is difficult, but I love it and I think I would recommend it to anyone that has an idea because it's just either, even if it doesn't work, you've learned so much. I think running a startup is equivalent to going to university and like getting a degree, I think, because you get all that real world experience, but you also make so many lovely friendships as well. So many people who I maybe never would have connected with if I hadn't started a business who have become actual friends. I just love this. And also I get to talk to you guys on this podcast.

Bex: Ah, thank you. Ah, it's so good to hear that you have kind of loved it even though it's been like a bit, a lot. Yeah, I was thinking about something kind of similar this week. I work in agencies. I've always worked in agencies. And I love it.I would never work, not in an agency because it's fast paced and I kind of love the pressure and there's a lot going on. Like, I don't really like slow pace and I think some people just love that sort of stuff. So you sound like someone who just loves constantly learning on the go and putting all the work in and yeah. Although you need to look after your health. Yeah, I think I scared cause I was doing a, um, we were like thinking about adding to the team, um, bringing someone on to the team, someone more specific. And I did this interview with them and I think I scared them off because they had only ever worked at big companies. And I said, you know, startups, it's like, you know, you make your own time. Sometimes we're working crazy hours. Sometimes it's a bit more manageable. Um, you know, you're going to have to manage yourself to a degree. And they were just like, they just wanted like nine to five. Very like structured tasks in an office. They wanted us to get back to the office and I was like, no, remote work is the future. And it's just, they were really lovely and it just didn't end up being a fit. But I just think that's also really important when you're doing any project, whether it's a startup or you're working on a podcast or you're working in an agency you need to be able to understand the people that you work with and understand what they like and what they don't like and work around each other. And if that doesn't work, then like whatever you're trying to do, isn't going to work. You know, you could have the best people, but if you can't work together as a team, then you're not going to be able to achieve anything.

Bex: Absolutely. And you've won loads of awards and done really well. So I hope that the, uh, tech for good scene has been welcoming to you. I know you're on board with Bethnal Green Ventures. We've done podcasts with them and yeah, you've won awards with Prince's Trust, Oxford Uni Foundry, Livewire, all of this stuff. So. You've done amazingly well.

Marie: I always, I don't know if I'm humble. I'm probably not humble at all. I love talking about myself, but I always, it's always weird to bring up your own achievements. It's kind of you want other people to do it. But we were incredibly lucky. Even though 2020 was a crazy year for us, we did, you know, we got loads of visas and we won like three awards. I was really, really pleased, um, to do that. But I think my favorite award that I ever won was just my first award, which was from Middlesex Uni. And that was the first award I ever won for my business. I'd had the idea for about a month, so excited. And so I think that will always be my favorite just because it was my first, you know, um, I think that was sweet. Probably. I don't know if that was relevant.

Bex: No, thank you so much for sharing all of that. And we're really excited to have you for the news segment. So what have we got on today's stat of the week? Uh, it's quite, it's quite political topics we've got today, so let's not get too deep.

Fay: We normally record these on a Tuesday evening where, you know, it's a bit darker. We can lean into feeling a bit more angry, but it's a lunchtime today and it's sunny outside. So we'll try and like talk about these topics with a sunny disposition and also, big caveat, I'm filling in for Greg, not as good a researcher as Greg, but I will try my best. I'll try my best and I've read everything, which is a plus. So there we go. Our stat of the week is that basically hundreds of new members joined Oathkeepers. Oathkeepers is a really far-right, right wing militia group based out in the US who were involved with the attacks on the U S Capitol back on January 6th. A bunch of hacked materials from the website have kind of revealed that people even joined or renewed their membership after group members participated in the attacks on the US Capitol. The hackers also kind of shown that people are also joined under their military rank. So even though people weren't joining with their military email addresses, stupidly in the title field, they were actually listing what their military title was. There's also people from the clergy have joined up, others involved in kind of like security contracting or the firearms industry, obviously, because it's the US. And this is a Guardian investigation and the records have basically shown that even though the majority of those like military folk who have joined are retired, some of them have actually gone to then go on and work in super-sensitive roles, like within the US government or in kind of other sort of fields, kind of connected to all of this. And even though there is kind of, there's a little bit of a grey area in terms of the email addresses that have been pulled from this hack, uh, just cause some of them are missing and some of the segments aren't exactly lined up. The membership growth is evident because there's payment records on the site. So I think the number came in at just 800 people who had joined or donated to the oath keepers after the insurgent on January 6th and yeah, it's just bonkers. And this all came from an organization called distributed denial of secrets, which is an amazing name for an organization, sounds like matrix stuff, after this anonymous hacker broke into the infrastructure. So yeah, so that's the thing. Attack on the us Capitol and the shitty organization called oath keepers, which needs a better name has had a hundred more people join it. So great news all around if you're right wing militia group, which none of us on this podcast are, so yeah, that's our stat of the week.

Bex: I love that you just get a diss on the name in there as well. Like, there's a lot of bad stuff in this news item, but also your name sucks,so sort it out.

Fay: it's just, ah, come on.

Marie: I think they tried to be vague so they can have like deniability. They're like, no we're not being racist and, you know, we're not fundamentalists. We're just like nice guys hanging out. Like, do they have that deniability? But yeah, it's racist. It's awful.

Bex: I think it's good.

Fay: Oh sorry, go on.

Bex: Some hackers are good, right. This hack is helpful to know. I mean, I don't know what actions we can take off the back of this or what this really means, or what we're going to do about it. But I think it was interesting from my perspective to know that this did the Capitol US attack was seen as a really great thing for the far right. I was wondering whether like, it might have, they might've thought it was a bit stupid because it was just a bit stupid. But actually they didn't think that. I guess it reveals that they thought it was great and it really riled them up to do more far-right stuff. Yeah. I don't know what we do with that information, but I guess it's kind of good to know.

Fay: Yeah. And it's just, there's loads more like news articles kind of coming out about it now, which are actually revealing the types of people that renewed their membership. So you've got kind of like county sheriffs who renewed their memberships. Apparently two active cops in NYPD and it just, you know, I think this hack, as you rightfully say, Bex, this is a hacker doing good, just reveals kind of how systemic the racism is. Not only just in the US. I know systemic racism is like an issue that, you know, is everywhere, but just in terms of kind of law enforcement and political departments in the U S government, it's like, this is rotting it to the core.This isn't just kind of, you know, one kind of group that's so kind of far-right that they're operating on their own. This is like, you know, this is...

Bex: Your neighbor.

Fay: Yeah. Exactly. This is your neighbor, your colleague. Hopefully it isn't any of our neighbors or colleagues. Jesus, but you know what I mean? It's just, it's so entrenched in US society that it's terrifying.

Marie: Yeah, definitely. And I think Isaw, I don't know if it was an active-duty cop or a retired one but I remember the media went to this cop and they said, Hey, you have been a member of this Oath keepers group since 2019 and you've been donating to them. And his excuse was like, oh, I don't remember doing that. It must've been an accident. You [00:19:00] don't sign up to like a far-right like Oath keepers, you know, secret, not secret organization, but like private organization, by mistake. Like that's not, you know, such a bizarre.

Bex: Ooops I slipped and put my payment details in.

Marie: [laughs] Yeah, it's so disturbing and I think that just the general reporting, not every media as well, but like just trying to diminish what actually happened on that day. I'm like, oh, it wasn't that big of a deal. It was just people, you know, protesting it wasn't, you know, no one was doing anything illegal or bad and it's like, we have so much video, that that is a complete lie. That was such a significant event and I don't think in just American history, but worldwide history, because something like that could happen in England and that terrifies me.

Fay: It's political coup. There's no other kind of way to describe it. And I've got some really good pals based over in the US and they were petrified and they were just like, what is happening? Like nobody has stormed, like I don't know the last time somebody stormed the US Capitol building, so I'm not even gonna try and put the date out, but it's like hundreds of years, like, you know what I mean?

Marie: I think it was during the American and Canadian war.it was a while ago.

Fay: Exactly. It wasn't like last week, you know what I mean? But it was just like, as you say, the media were just like, oh, it's fine. They're out now. Don't worry about it. And it's like, no, this is like, this is democracy falling right before our eyes. And what are you going to do about it? Like, oh, it's all right. Just don't worry about it. Let’s brush it under the carpet. Terrifying. Anyway, sorry. I said I was trying to do this with a sunny disposition and that lasted about 30 seconds,didn’t it? [laughs]

Bex: I mean, it was never, it was not an easy task, to be honest, based on the stories we've got here, because on that note, moving on to charity news of the week, I mean, the first one's bad, this is probably not as bad, but I'm still fuming about it. I'm so mad about it and it's political] again. So we've gotta be careful about what we say. Cause you know, we're not political. I don't know why I just said that. Of course we are. Open letter from 23 charities asking the government not to politicize the role of the charity commissioner, which should be illegal anyway. It shouldn't be allowed to happen. So there's been this open letter. Fay, tell us more about what's going on.

Fay: Yeah. So a bunch of chief execs, as you said, from a group of charities and organizations all come together to write to the new culture secretary, Nadine Dories. Forgive me if I'm pronouncing the surname name wrong. Basically protesting at the plans that the previous minister had to politicise the role of the Head of the charity commission. So the previous dude, Oliver Dowdon vowed to use the appointment to rebalance what he called the woke agenda in the sector. So he wrote an article which basically came out saying there's a worrying trend in some charities that appear to have been hijacked by a vocal minority seeking to burnish the woke credentials, which is just….

Bex: I just don't even know that, I think this is what annoys me the most. Like, what are they even talking about? Like, hey, charities stop being woke. Like what do you mean by that? Like, I don't even really know. And if you mean like, is like woke is a bit of a derogatory term right, for people who are pretending to be good, but not really good. So does he mean that cause actually that's kind of good if you just like, talking the talk but not walking the walk, but I don't think that's what they mean. I think they're just trying to have a go at the standard, like, uh, you know, snowflakey woke. I think it means different things to different people. And I'm really worried that…..

Marie: I think they should ban that word in total because like, and never use it again because it is you're right. People just use it because they know that if they say, oh, blank, something, something, something is woke a certain subset of the population who are going to be very vocal and immediately are going to hear that word and be on your side, like, oh yeah, the woke agenda. It's like a boogeyman. It's ridiculous.

Bex: Yeah.

Marie: It's a character, a real person that they kind of conjure up to just get their way, like whatever they want, they just go, oh, it's the wokies are against it and then people are ultimately, and half the time that it's not relevant to what they're talking about. 

Bex: Yeah, 

Marie: I just hate that word so much.

Bex: Oh, you put that so much better. I was really struggling to like, figure out what I was trying to say with the concept of woke and you've like, perfectly said it. This idea that it conjures up an idea and they're deliberately using the idea to tame the charity sector, I mean, we've talked about this loads on this podcast in the past, but the charity sector is inherently political to some extent. Like they have to, you know, push for policy. They have to, it's kind of like a big part of what they do. So it's really hard to just squash that and people who have been trying to squash it for the last few years and it's really worrying where this is going.

Marie: Yeah, it's become a dog whistle, I think. And if people aren't familiar with that word, because I think that's more of an American term. Um, it basically just means like a coded word that you use, but everybody else knows what you really mean. Um, but you can say something without saying something and then you have that deniability of like, no, that's not what I meant. You're taking my words out of context but people who know what you're talking about kind of know what you're talking about. It's so insidious. It really is. Yeah. I mean, in theory, it shouldn't even be possible to do that because charity work is, is supposed to be a good thing. We shouldn't be selling it with politics to be like, we want to feed hungry children because children shouldn't be hungry. And especially in a country that considers itself like a first world country and has lots of money. But weirdly that's never okay. There's always someone complaining about it and going, like, we shouldn't have handouts, like, the parents should be responsible. Like, well, we gave them some bread. 

Bex: Why don't those children just go get a job if they're so hungry. God damn it [laughs] 

Marie: I'm sure I find it. They're really small. They don't need much. Right.

Fay: It’s just bonkers. I think like in this context, Dowden was definitely in it as like a super negative term, because in the same article, he then also said that charities should be and I quote totally focused on their important work.

Bex: What's distracting them? The woke agenda is distracting them from their important work. So they're being, they're not doing it. Like they are, they are doing it. Like there is a lot of problems in the charity sector, but that's the same with any sector. Like we shouldn't be just saying the charity sites as crap and not working cause they have the same issues as every everywhere else. On the whole, there's a lot of really, really dedicated people doing a lot of really, really important work. And it's really shitty to be telling them that they're not doing that properly. 

Marie: And I don't know if this is a controversial take or not, but you would think the government would be doing everything they can to stay on the good side of charities because they’re cutting government funds for so many essential services and so many benefits. They don't want to do that. And who is going to have to fill that gap? It’s going to be charity, unfortunately. So why are they waging a war against them and making their lives more difficult? It's bizarre.

Fay: It’s just doesn't make any sense. Um, at all. It's yeah. It's just really frustrating, really angry and upset as well to kind of read this, you know, when we work with people in charities and we've got pals and charities and all this kind of stuff, but yeah, the open letter is basically is calling for Doris, not Doris. Nadine Dorries, sorry, the Culture Secretary, just to make sure that this appointment process isn't politicised at all. There's even a legal challenge being taken out against Dowden by the Good Law Project, I think basically saying it is super unlawful for the government to interfere with the charity commission. You should not be interfering at all. You should not be, you should not be kind of, you know, putting your tentacles into the charity commission and yeah. It's [00:27:00] awful. It's really, it's really upsetting. And it's really frustrating. 

Marie: Well, they're all playing politics. Unfortunately, the Government or certain people in the government are playing politics because I don't know what their goal is or what they want their actual goal to be like, what are their concrete results from what they’re saying it’s going to be? They don't seem to actually have an outcome that they desire. It's almost like, are you just saying this to say it so you can get some attention. That's just what it seems like. It just seems like attention-seeking.

Bex: Oh crap, we gave them attention [laughs] 

Marie: Oh no! 

Bex: I think we should just keep an eye on this because I think everybody should, it's really important that this, uh, charity commission appointment is not a weird one. I mean, I don't know how we judge that, but, uh, you can judge that. Let's keep an eye on it Cause I'm really worried about this. 

Fay: it’s not cool. It's not good. 

Bex: Not good. Tech news of the week. I have not been following this, which is weird because it's about Facebook being a dick. 

Fay: Oh I have. 

Bex: So go on Fay, tell me what Facebook have done now. 

Fay: God, what haven't they done? So talking about all the stuff that isn't good. So two big pieces of news coming out on Facebook this week. First up, we had the outage on Monday. I think it was, which, you know, I'm sure we were all impacted by this in some, some personal professional forms of Facebook, Instagram and WhatsApp went down for six hours, I think on Monday, which is the longest outage they've had since 2019. But at the same time, on the same day, we also heard from Francis Haugen. She used to be a project manager at Facebook used to be part of their civic misinformation team and she's come out as a whistleblower and she's basically been secretly copying thousands of internal documents before leaving the company in May. She's been leaking these governments, uh, leaking these governments, sorry, leaking these documents to the likes of the Wall Street Journal, which fueled their report recently, um, about Instagram and looking into the harm that Instagram does, um, that it has on girls mental health. So she actually had her hearing I think and has been doing media and kind of precedent views. And she's basically kind of come out saying that these documents prove that Facebook is repeatedly prioritizing growth over safety. It's putting profits before people, which obviously if you have listened to this podcast before, that one follower that you mentioned at the beginning in the intro Bex. 

Bex: Hi Mum. hi. 

Fay: [laughs] but, you know, like we've talked about the harm that Facebook causes like repeatedly and kind of on this podcast, uh, tying back to our first, our first kind of point off start the week, she also condemned Facebook. So Francis Haugen, as part of this reveal also condemned Facebook playing a key role, helping fuel that violent insurgence on January the sixth at the US Capitol and actually just driving political polarization around the world. You know, Facebook was in the news last month or the month before, for obviously having a role in the Myanmar unrest over there as well. There's stories going on repeatedly just the role that Facebook actually plays in driving anger, driving divide, obviously between different kind of political parties and different people. Zuckerberg actually hit back at these claims in a blog post claiming that Hogan's claims were just not true and that's a direct quote from his blog post and that many of her claims don't make sense and that's the best that he could kind of come out with. And yeah, she just she's been on like 60 minutes, CBS and has just basically kind of summed it up really well by saying that the version of Facebook that exists today is tearing our societies apart and causing ethnic violence around the world. And Facebook's business is built on driving as much engagement as possible, regardless of the harm that it causes.

Bex: I mean, like, I dunno what to say about this. We know this, I think we've had a lot of evidence to suggest it's true. It's really, really good. That there's a load, more evidence. This feels like really solid evidence, but like what now? We already know. And nobody did anything and it's really dangerous.

Fay: It's really, really dangerous. 

Bex: But what do we do? Like what's happening. It's not always, it's kinda my take from this. I dunno, Marie what's happening. Do you know?

Marie: It's just, you know, I think it's, I don't think this is necessarily new. I think a lot of the information that the whistleblower kind of did on in her 60 minutes interview and in her official testimony, I don't think it was that surprising to anyone who's been following this, it's just confirmation, right? It's just now these actual documents to prove it. Whereas before it was just people using a bit of their common sense, it's frustrating because it's like, what is going to be the result of that? Is this going to be headline news for a couple of weeks? And then everyone's going to forget about it and continue using Facebook, like they have been for, for many, many years, or is actual change going to happen. I like to think it's going to be the latter, but I'm worried it's going to be the former because we just get so much news all the time, constantly, that it becomes very overwhelming. And something that would have been headline news for years. Um, you know, in the nineties, early 2000s, you know, before the internet became a thing, it is gone by the end of the week. You know, people just forget about it because. You know, it, it makes our lives convenient or it takes our minds off certain things. And it's just something that just gets forgotten about. I really hope this going to the actual change, but I'm, I'm just worried that it's just going to get buried by something else. I really am. And also like, you know, his response was just like, well, this is not true. You know, we don't do any of those things. I was like, hmmm, okay, well, you know, let's hope that's something actually comes about. 

Fay: It's just mad. It's just mad. And it just goes to show kind of the estate that Zuckerberg has built. Like this is the problem. It's just every time, every time, like these news articles kind of come out and it's like, you know, Facebook went down, WhatsApp went down, Messenger went down, Instagram, went down. It's just continuing to show how reliant we are as a society on the Facebook estate and that is terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. And it's just, you know, kind of, as you say, Marie, like, what is the next step? Like, are we just going to continue hearing bad stories happen and that's just going to be it. Yeah. Don't know. It's crap and it's awful. Like the audience won't hear that, but yeah, for anyone, we're recording now, and in the background, I just have an additional guest who wanted to wave and kind of show off. 

Bex: An adorable guest by the way. 

Fay: And his tiger. 

Bex: Excellent tiger. Excellent. 

Marie: Thank you. Tigie.

Bex: Oh Tigie. Ten out ten. 

Marie: And I think also just the wealth of documentation that's been released as well. It's going to take a while for everyone to kind of dig through it really and for the people that are like experts in those particular fields, it's going to be really important because I saw a tape that said that like a lot of the information that she released, she actually has no expert knowledge on all of that stuff. Like all of that reports, she works in completely different departments. She just happened to have access to that documentation. And so I think it was Katie Newton, we need like in-depth reporting and understanding of what's actually being released and the implications.

Fay: I guess, just to kind of follow along follow on from your point Marie, it's really interesting. Like just the amount of people that work at Facebook who have taken, taken to Twitter and are just like destroying her claims and just being like, she didn't even work in that department. She can't say anything about that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The entire life of Facebook staff are kind of like rallying together to shut this down. 

Bex: Ooh, that's interesting. I mean, that's the whole thing itself. We've only got ten minutes left, but I'm really curious as to where that's come from. Cause Facebook staff have recently been very good at calling out Facebook where it needs to get better. So really interesting that that is a thing. That's kind of like, yeah, I think, I mean, I have questions about are they fake accounts and what's going on there and who's been told to, who's been threatened with job cuts if they don't do this. 

Marie: To be fair they did say they were going to try and get rid of finster [laughs] 

Bex: Practical next steps for this. I am really interested in what that looks like. I guess there's different levels, isn't there? I really think law policy regulation needs to crack down on Facebook and the power in the world. I think there are actual laws they break all the time, but no one's bothered doing anything about it. And new laws need to be created for them. That level, which no one's doing anything about, there's something in the middle where there's like loads of grassroots expert organisations who are working in like areas of online harm. Like I worked with a load of organizations who were looking at how women are disproportionately affected by the internet, like negatively. And all these activists were really, really working with the platforms as much as they possibly could. And I was working on a really positive project. Like what can we do? What can we do is all about like positive outputs. And there was loads of different things we could do, but when it got to, what can we do? Like how can we influence the platforms themselves to change, they all like pissed themselves laughing and were like, that's not something we can do. Like, we've tried our hardest. It's not a thing. So that was really like, that's maybe not a way forward. And then the third one is, let's develop platforms to move everybody on. Let's get everybody off Facebook. Supply and demand, and that's not worked either. So I posted a new one. There's I think it's a messaging platform and a new one that's come up called Self. And I posted it in the Tech for good slack channel saying, oh, maybe this is like an alternative to WhatsApp. And Greg just laughed at it because. Because there's already Signal. There's already platforms out there that are better than Facebook, but no one uses them. I can't get my mom off WhatsApp and I don't think I ever will. So either I sacrifice my relationship with my mom and get off WhatsApp or. Oh, you know, what's the alternative there isn't really, I think we're struggling to get people off these platforms. So how do we do that? I dunno. 

Fay: No idea. No idea. 

Marie: It's so hard because it is, they are all great tools for communication. It just depends on if you use them for good or for bad. 

Fay: Yeah. 

Marie: And unfortunately, a lot of people have been using them for bad, which is taking away the good aspects of it because yeah, I mean, I personally didn't notice that they were out for like almost the whole day, because I only use WhatsApp and I just wasn't really using it that much that day. And I didn't go on Instagram, so I didn't notice. And I didn’t go on Facebook, I didn't notice it was even out. And it was only when there was an influx of people on Twitter going, oh, no, Facebook is down, getting really upset. Yeah, it's bizarre how sometimes society can't function when a website goes down. I think the fact that we're so connected is wonderful, but sometimes we come so reliant on it that even just the tiny tiniest break in infrastructure, just, you know, can cost companies, millions or billions, you know, pounds or dollars, whatever. Um, because some code went wrong, someone didn't input the right data. Some servers, you know, whatever the conspiracy theory of why it actually went down.

Fay: Yeah. I love reading about the conspiracy theories though. Cause like loads of people, they took, you know, the outreach happened the same day that like Francis Haugen was doing her testimonial. So they just took it all down to avoid being looked at. Which I kinda like, but then just the stories reading that people who work at Facebook couldn't get into the building because you have to sign in on a tablet with your Facebook profile to get into the actual office and because it had all gone down, they were all just stood outside and I was like, that's hilarious. That actually made me laugh.

Marie: I know. That was quite funny. And it was also a combination of like a lot of the people that. I did know how to get in without all those credentials weren’t on-site and I think you need to be onsite to do it. And it was just like, you know, kind of a Benny Hill disaster, like the running around, like trying to figure out the information which you think a company that's worth billions of dollars would have backups for that sort of thing if it goes down. You’d think they’d think of that. 

Bex:  On to rant and nice of the week though, because I think it rolls in quite nicely. We've got two options in here that we've written in our agenda and I'm not sure which one you want to go with. So I know Marie, you were glad the outage happened and also we've got how are police failing women. 

Marie: Yeah, just the constant police bumbling of how to help women that are in distress, what they should do if they actually encounter people. And I saw on Twitter this morning that a writer, thanks. She was coming out of a tube chief station and they had a bunch of police officers asking women to do surveys. But it was all men, apparently. No female officers onsite doing that, asking for these, like the details. And she was just like, they are just tone deaf and blind. And it's just absolutely bizarre that they still could not see how bad the optics are. You know, maybe they are trying to help, but they're doing it in the absolute worst way. I'm sure maybe they're going to come out with an app at some point that only women can use. I don't know, I'm just imagining like the worst plan that they could think of to kind of fix an issue that they don't actually want to look at their own ranks to kind of figure out. And unfortunately, you know, you know, blank failing women is probably always going to be timely. So it's always going to be] like an evergreen rant, unfortunately.

Fay: It's just, it's just mud and it's upsetting. It’s frustrating. But just like just the advice. If a lone male police officer approaches you and you don't feel safe, run away, flag down a bus driver and call 999. Oh, what the fuck? Like, excuse my French. But like what the, like, it's just insanity. It is actually just insanity. Not only do women have to think like, okay, well, what am I going to wear that makes me not a target. How am I going to get home not by myself or like, if I am getting home by myself, do I take public transport or do I take a taxi? Where should I park? Do I have to park in a well lit area? Like, you know, a well lit area? Should I be carrying my keys? Like in my hand, like a weapon is just like, and now we have to think, oh, okay, well, this bloke was on his own and that's a bit dodge, so I'm just going to run in the other direction and flag down a boss because they are going to help me. And it like, it's just, it's pure insanity.

Marie: Oh, yeah. And the whole advice about like, well, you know, she should have been aware of the law to know that like, you can't be arrested for this and I as like, so women have to defend themselves, they've got to be completely morally acceptable. So something does happen to them then they can't be blamed for it. They also have to be lawyers so they know every aspect of the law, just in case something happens. It's just, the amount of stuff to do, it is just really, really bizarre and it drives me crazy.

Bex: I can’t get over it, just believe women, right? That's just the thing, isn't it? Just believe what they have to go through, what they have to do, and then do something about it. And I think believing women is the first point that we've still not really tackled, like as much as they might be saying outwardly, oh yeah, this all sounds terrible. We'll try and figure it out and then figuring it out badly. Like actually at the core, how many people in the police service actually think that any of this is really worth dealing with actually worth dealing with and like, you know, the whole narrative around this it's like men are constantly going, I didn't know women had to deal with that sort of stuff. Like we've still not really, it's not really even embedded that this is something that we have to think about on a day-to-day basis. 

Fay: It's just, yeah, it just really, really, really infuriates me. And it's just when then. You know, the news came out last week where it was like another, another copper in the same department as the bloke that murdered Sarah  then raped another woman. And it was just kind of. Well, he's going on and people brushed down to the carpet like, oh, you know, just a bad egg, just like a bad batch. And it's like, you insane? No. Oh anyway, anger. 

Marie: Also, there’s WhatsApp groups, there's multiple WhatsApp groups of like, you know, groups of officers saying, you know, racist things, sexist things and it's like, why would anybody be in those groups and they were acceptable, you know, people reported it. And the higher-ups did nothing because I guess it was seen as like a harmless thing. But if I was in a WhatsApp group and someone was saying racist and sexist things, I'd be like, I'm not going to be in this group or I'm going to try and get this person kicked out. I’m like, why are we friends with this person? And the fact that it was deemed acceptable, just shows like there's such a huge problem because obviously, it doesn't mean that every single police officer is horrible and racist and evil, that's not true at all. I've been touch with very lucky that any interaction I've ever had with police has been great, you know? But as the saying goes, um, one bad apple spoils the bunch, and I think people forget that second part of the saying. They think, oh, it's a bad apple, so we're just going to throw it out.

Bex: I didn’t know that that was the second half of that. 

Marie: Did you not [laughs] 

Bex: No. See, people don't realise that second part of the phrase and it changes it completely. 

Marie: No, I think actually that probably would have been my other rant. Which is, people not saying sayings properly. Like, the famous saying of blood is thicker than water. Um, that's not the full quote. The full quote is like blood is thicker than water. And then it's, I don't know the whole thing. So maybe I'm being a hypocrite, but it's something about blood of the covenant. But everyone kind of uses it to say like, you know, you should love your family. more than your friends. But it's actually the complete opposite. It’s, you know, thinking of situ family or friends, because the blood of like war is thicker than like the water in the womb. 

Bex: So it’s nothing to do with that. It's wrong. Everyone uses it completely. It’s the opposite. 

Fay: The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb. That's an amazing quote, like Halloween month. Blood of the covenant. I love it. Love it.

Bex: I think that was like an excellent rant but I am going to have to end it there and we'll end on a positive, just to cheer ourselves up. The new Fairphone is out. Anybody who doesn't know what a Fairphone is, I don't know why you wouldn't because it's the best thing ever. And I'm like a proper Fairphone girl about it, but it’s a sustainable phone, right? 

Fay: Yeah. 

Bex: Really, really thought through. We're on to number four now. So, you know, whether the first one was good or not, doesn't matter. Cause we're four phones in. So it's going to be great now. They guarantee and the phone lasts for five years, uh, that you can change all the parts. So unlike an Apple phone, which is very locked down and a lot of other phones are very locked down. This one, you can change parts in and out. If so, if the battery dies, you can get a new one. So it should last longer. And the new one's out, uh, very exciting. I'm still not sure. Weirdly because I do have an iPhone and it has actually lasted for five or six years. So I've not had the chance to get Fairphone and obviously, your current phone is better than getting a new one if you don't need one. But when you do get a new one Fairphone.

Marie:  Yeah, exactly. Well, they say that they say a similar thing about electric vehicles as well. idn't they? That they are the future, but like, you should wait until the old one goes out and then get a Fairphone or a Tesla or something. But, yeah, I love that company, and not just because they are on the same portfolio as me, they're obviously much further ahead. Because we've both been invested by Bethnal Green Ventures. Um, but yeah, it's just such an amazing concept. And again, that's what I love about the tech for good space. There are so many amazing companies literally doing good in tech and get such a bad rap for harming society. Um, but it has so much potential and we just need to be able to use the tools in the right way that actually helps society and they are one of the good ones. They're one of the good companies that just kind of be seen as like a shining example, um, and hopefully Mini Mealtimes as well. Just doing my little plug there at the end. But yeah and I love that’s how we’re going to end off.

Bex: Yeah. And actually, there's a whole section for you to plug stuff. So where can people find you on the internet? What would you like to plug? Over to you, Marie.

Marie: Yeah, I think I’ll just plug the Mini Mealtimes app and our online services, which we launched once ago, where parents can have online consultations with a qualified dietician or nutritionist. Um, so they can do it from the comfort of their own home or offices. We try to be as flexible as we can with budgets and people's schedules. So go on to Mini Mealtimes dot com and find out about these consultations, or you can download the app to monitor your child's nutrition. And if you're not a parent, tell it to someone who knows who has a child, because statistically you probably do. And if you want to find us, we’re on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, Facebook, you know, our favorite platforms, just under Mini Mealtimes. So you'll be able to find us there. And if you want to follow me for some reason, I'm under Marie Farmer, mostly on Twitter. I'm always on there talking. So if you have any questions about the app, the nutrition, the adult or adolescent nutrition space in the UK or you want to just run about anything I'm here. 

Bex: Thank you so much, Marie. It's been absolutely wonderful having you I've loved to have you on this podcast. I've learnt loads from you, mainly about how I use phrases incorrectly and also the name of Sabrina, the Teenage Witch’s other TV show [laughs] 

Marie: I’m full of random facts. Hopefully, you’ll have me again at some point, because yeah, this is such a fun podcast. And now you have at least two listeners.

Bex: Yayyy. Thank God.

Marie: If you go by Y Combinator stats, you've increased your growth by 50%. So that's like super impressive. 

Fay: There you go. You can stay. You can come back again [laughs]

Marie: [laughs] 

Bex: So listeners, Mum, what did you think? we'd love to hear your thoughts? Do tweet at us at tech for good live. We'd love it if you gave us a nice iTunes review. It is actually helpful for podcasts to get those reviews in. And so please do that. And thank you to Podcast.co for hosting our podcast. That's very lovely of them. We are all volunteers. I mean, I always say that. Surprising isn't it, but it's not at all surprising. And we do survive on sponsorships and donations. We mainly use them just to pay for platforms and also translations, which is very important to us to make sure that our podcasts are accessible. None of the team are willing to do them because it's awful, so we do have to pay for the transcriptions. We get it at a really, really good price because of the lovely Rosemarie who does them for us. But please chip in the price of a coffee. That's tech for good dot live forward slash donate; surprisingly. Thank you very much. That's the end of the podcast. Bye. 

Fay: Bye

Marie: Bye