TFGL2021 - S3 - Ep 9 - Reclaiming Social Media

Welcome to this episode of the Tech For Good Live podcast.

Fay Schofield is on hosting duties, and she is joined by Greg Ashton and Marium Navid

Our special guest is Tereza Litsa, Digital Engagement Manager at Lightful and organiser of the #ReclaimSocial campaign.

Transcript

Fay: Hello. Welcome to the Tech for Good Live. This is a weekly show, all about technology and how it can and should, but often isn't used to how a positive impact on the world this week. We'll be talking about how a Swiss student has demonstrated Twitter's algorithm is biased. Shocker. The UK is full of ageists. And social media is going to be used to vet gun ownership and Boatee McBoatfaced may have been knocked off the best-named boat spot. I promise you that as a thing, as the flying Farage is gaining traction to become a reality. Joining me today, we have, Greg Ashton is back on the pod again today. And as we've got a little bit of a boat-themed story potentially later on, I want to know what's your pirate name, Greg? And just for the listeners at home, we're looking at one of those really cheesy, poorly put together grids where you have to pick the first letter of your first name, middle name, and your last name to get your pirate name. So Greg, who apparently has three middle names, what is your pirate name? 

Greg: Uh, if we're going full name, it would be Shark Bait Ceeper Old Spike from the West. 

Fay: I'll take it.

Greg: It’s terrible.

Fay: It is not that bad. Could be better. Could be better. 

Marium:  Well, you know, maybe it's like pirate meets cowboy. 

Greg: Yeah [laughs]

Fay: Possibly. And Marium Daveed is back on the podcast. Long time, no see. Same question. 

Marium: Hello. 

Fay: Same question. What’s your pirate name? 

Marium: So I'm like, Greg, I do not have any middle names [laughs] Yeah. So I have a short one. I got Dead Man Hornswoggle. 

Fay: That's pretty good. 

Marium: It’s threatening [laughs] 

Fay: I think that’s really good. I think you're winning so far. Um, me I'm Fay Schofield. I'm going to be your host today. I’m AKA Two-Shoes Felony Chumbucket, which I, take it or leave it? Um, I don't know. This was a really poor warm-up. I'm sorry. I like saw this before and I was like, this is going to be amazing. But anyway, never mind. And moving on very quickly, we have a guest with us today on our seafaring journey. Tereza Litsa, a Digital Engagement Manager at  Lightful and Organiser of the Reclaim Social campaign. Tereza, same question, what's your pirate name? 

Tereza: Well, I don't have a middle name, so I guess I'm at a Red Barnacle. I mean, I'll take it. 

Fay: That's pretty good. That's pretty good. Short and sweet. Short and sweet. 

Greg: That’s a good name for a boat. 

Marium: I think Theresa wins. 

Fay: Teresa definitely wins. Um, cool. All right, well, thank you for bearing with me. This is why Bex should host the podcast, but anyway, never mind, never mind. Um, this week's topics, Greg, what's going on. 

Greg: So jumping straight in, we are going to be looking at Twitter. So Twitter paid Bogdan Kulynych, a graduate student at Switzerland's EFPL University, three and a half thousand dollars because he has demonstrated the bias in their algorithm that we all knew was there. He’s technically demonstrated that it does exist. Um, so this was in relation to a hot topic, which came up a few months ago now, which was looking at how images were cropped and shown in your feed on Twitter. And, uh, Kind of, uh, anecdotal evidence was, was demonstrated that Twitter would tend to focus in on the white males within images and Bogdan has proven that. So it's the first-ever algorithmic bug bounty. That's what Twitter kind of promoted it as, and that kind of almost promote in this as a good thing that, you know, this has been found. And I think because of that term book has been used, um, cause there's that kind of belief, you know, that understanding in the tech industry that well books happen and, you know, it's, it's unintended consequences, but I think, um, what was quite interesting was the student's response was that, he basically said algorithmic harms and not only books, crucially, a lot of harmful tech is harmful, not because of accidents or unintended mistakes, but rather by design. This comes from maximisation of engagement and in general profit externalizing, the cost to others. Yeah. I thought that was really interesting. So he's basically disagreeing with the official line from Twitter.

Fay: Interesting. This is funny, cause it's obviously it's normally like Facebook's algorithm that comes on the obviously quite rightly that comes into the fire more than anything else. So it's interesting to see that this is one of the very first times they’re beginning to open up and put Twitter kind of in the spotlight. Tereza or Marium, what do you, what do you guys think to this story?

Tereza: Yeah, I think it's really interesting. And as you've said, Facebook is usually on this potluck with negative stories and all green news. But it's something about the, has seen a little coverage lately on more social platform and how AI really has bias or pretty much those were designing the platforms. And it is something that we should focus more and hold them accountable really, and try and push them to do more on that direction. 

Marium: Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, I totally agree with the student and I think everybody knows that like, bias itself is a result of the history through which social structures have been created as well. So I mean, you can trace it back to just the remnants of colonisation and like western imperialism, like all of those things just filter in through every day and it's just fascinating to see. How it's it filters through tech. A lot of the times tech is marketed as objective and, you know, it's, there's, it's data. So obviously like there's no bias in data it's numbers. Right. But that itself is like, you know, it's just using that rhetoric itself is also like a form of bias. Trying to justify things, by like, saying that it's all scientific in when we know like even science, like, you know, just scientific even like the like economics and all these other issues that are, all of these fields are even objective themselves, do come from a place of bias. So I think it's really great that I think the next generation just in general as well, um, is also starting to recognize that it's just becoming more culturally accepted that you have to critically think about these things. So. Yeah. I mean, I'm glad that, I mean, I actually am wondering, did the person accept the bounty?

Greg: I couldn't find any information, but yeah. I mean, he is a student, so he probably did. 

Marium: Interesting, well, like, do you get the bounty if you like publicly disagree though? 

Greg: Ha, well, he probably took the money first [laughs]

Marium: [laughs] 

Greg: What do we think about this idea of bug bounties then? You know, I think it's, you know, the student there has demonstrated that he doesn't agree with the term, but that concept of, you know, third parties identifying limitations in algorithms. Do we think it'll catch on? Do we think it could actually help these organisations?

Marium: Um, yeah, no, I totally do. I mean, I think that, if you think about how people get in the tech world, right? Like there is like a very specific, you have to be a certain type of person with a certain amount of access to resources to get there and then those people have blind spots. And so I think, it's great that it's kind of like this democratisation of like the field in a way, of opening it up and allowing someone who may not traditionally have that access to that space to really like insert, you know, actually correct the things. And that's the only way they're really gonna correct the bugs. Well, they're not bugs; the actual like problems with the system is if you do open it up to people who won't necessarily like be in that space, like who won't necessarily get the access to that job on a regular basis. 

Fay: Yeah, I was going to say, I totally agree. And it's interesting to see how this is kind of, um, cropping up across different social platforms. So I don't know if anyone's heard about the great Londini, which is the Tik TOK account and there's mass man and a black hoodie. Who's speaking straight to the camera, um, has like a distorted voice, but goes after hunting trolls. So is basically going after like troll accounts on Twitter. So very kind of like Mr. Robot vibe but yeah, it's just he's going after people who are leaving abusive comments, like sexist comments, racist comments, like whatever else, and getting these accounts shut down. So there's. It's interesting that this kind of, you know, hunting the bug, quote, unquote, or like attacking the troll in this kind of, you know, massive vigilante kind of way. I dunno. Just interesting to kind of see what else might come out the woodwork. 

Greg: Tereza, you're an organizer of Reclaim Social. Uh, tell us a little bit about that and just, do you think, you know, from your experiences of organising that, do you think this kind of action can have an impact?

Tereza: Yeah, of course. Uh, so we started the Reclaim Social campaign four and a half years ago. It was supposed to be one-off, just celebrate one day of making social media more positive and focused on nonprofits and how they can really amplify their stories. And by positive, we don't mean just ignoring the world, but more like giving space to those who deserve to share more of their own stuff. And that went really well, actually, surprisingly well. So we continue that every year on the 6th of February. And it's a great opportunity, mostly on Twitter and Instagram to just look at interesting stories, campaigns, things that are kind of like random acts of kindness, then how they really spread. So it goes back to the idea o, if you see more of such posts on your feed, then those that might be trolls. They're not inclined to join. Cause one of my first worries was what if trolls just come in and spoil the party really? But actually, I was really surprised. They were like one, two posts out of thousands that were negative. And that proves that the more we see positive posts on our feed, then the easier it becomes to actually continue to spread that. So I think in that case, it's probably a good start to be able to start looking at the bugs. Obviously, I hate the word bug. It's not a bug. It's probably gaps that they need to feel, but it's definitely the right direction there. There's more to be done. But it's interesting to see what comes next. 

Greg: Yeah. I feel like, yeah, I love the campaign. I think it's such a good idea. You know, I mean, positive messaging really helped me last week with the whole climate crisis thing, you know, a few good messages between all the doom and gloom was enough to kind of lift my spirits a bit. But yeah, obviously the algorithm is a big challenge there because it feeds off engagement and people are more likely to engage with the negative stuff. So yeah, I think that the Reclaim Social campaign is great, but you need that, that kind of, you do need to deal with those gaps to remove that focus on negativity and to kind of make that, you know, so it's not just one day a year, so that we're seeing it more often.

Tereza: Yeah. Completely agree. 

Fay: Theme for 2022. Reclaim social. Go in for an entire year. Annual campaign. Love it. I'm here for it. Talking of getting older, poor segue. Forgive me. Um, but yeah, talking of getting all the thank you, Mariumfor laughing, you're on mute so nobody can hear you laughing. 

Marium: I’m laughing because I just had a birthday, so don't worry. I had a freakout. 

Greg: Oh me too. Me too. 

Fay: Happy birthday to you, both. Um, but yeah, talking of getting older, thanks for the laughs Marium, charity news of the week. Greg, sprout age, what's going on? 

Greg: Yeah. So the charity, Aging Better. I'll let you work out what they work on. They've got a new survey that they've got the results from, and they found that over half of adults in England, so over 55%, believe that the UK is ageist. So there's a kind of a mixed kind of bag of responses from this. So the survey was conducted by Savannah Comrades and they found that while the majority of over 70s feel pretty positive about aging, it drops to just two in five. So 41% of people in the fifties and sixties feel positive about aging. Men tend to be more positive about the process. So 53%, while only 40% of women highlighting that there's a bit of a double jeopardy as they refer to it of, um, sexism and ageism. And yeah, and that kind of view of, uh, generational conflict. So the old hate the young and vice versa is not actually really reflective in the views of the public. So 54% of the adults don't agree that older people today benefit at the expense of younger people. And 18, 10, so 80% agree that older people have a wealth of experience and perspectives to offer society. So. Yeah. Although they think that the public think that the UK is ageist, they also don't think that there's this war going on between the old and the young. So yeah, a bit of a mixed bag. 

Fay: Yeah, this is a really interesting one. Especially kind of honing in on your point, Greg. Men obviously feeling more positive about aging versus women. Like that's not a surprise to any of us on this podcast, I'm sure. Just, you know, the pressure that women face in terms of looks and keeping looking younger and all this kind of stuff. So that's not a shock, but like there is some really interesting kind of stats in all of this. I love old people actually. Maybe I shouldn't say old people. I love the elderly. I think they're great. My nan is my favorite person in the entire world and she's like nine one. So yeah. I don't know if I can advocate, for like, advocating for the elderly, but yeah, Tereza, Marium, like, what's your take on this? 

Marium: I mean, I would be interested to see the survey results broken down by, I don't know, like if there's a category to look at where the ageism shows up, Because I can imagine like, yes, I love old people. I do. I mean, I love my grandma, you know, I'm like my grandparents, but seeing like, ageism just exist, like more in the workplace versus like in like social spaces, for example. So I'm like wondering how that shows up and like how the survey, like, whether the survey actually broke stuff down by that. But I think there's like a flip here that on one side, like, you know, like there's more respect given to older people, you know, if they're walking down the street, they're like, you know, um, just like, you know, walking in a park or something, but then if they wanted to apply for a job, they're probably going to face that barrier of people saying, yeah, you might get a lot of assumptions even, like, you might not know how to like, use the tech or like, you know, stuff like that. I mean, I think it even shows up in like, like workspaces that I've been in where people will just make comments of, oh my gosh, she's like 90 years old and she knows how to use tools. What? So weird. I don't know if that's like full-on ageism, but it's like just, you know, it's just, we have a lot of assumptions just attached to people based off of age. So I would just be interested to see like how things broke down in different spaces because I think it's very different. 

Tereza: I was actually looking for something similar on the difference between the social and the professional setting, because the first thing that came to my mind on that was the ages is in terms of the professional environment. Or for example, when we keep reading about the tech industry and the startups, and where were you raised a certain age, it's different perceptions as opportunities and everything. So it would be interesting to see that narrowing down and see more details on where that comes from or why it comes. 

Fay: Is there any data to this Greg? Like, is it broken down in this way? Do we know? 

Greg: So not in the kind of settings that they were looking at. So it was, it was largely focused on age and, um, kind of, uh, gender and those kinds of things. So, yeah, I think that is a very good point and it is a lot more complex because of those reasons. So, yeah. And also, you know, when it's a survey you’re taking kind of peoples, people believe that the UK is a jest, but that that's just kind of their assessments. Uh, you know, that understanding of why they believe that, you know, you've got things like, um, the pandemic and, and some of the treatment of care homes and the way that that was handled, that may kind of give people that impression that we, you know, we care less about the older members of society. Yeah, I don't really care about it. I just hate everyone. 

Fay: You’re not old. 

Marium: Greg doesn't discriminate [laughs]

Greg: On your point. Oh, sorry. 

Marium: Sorry, go ahead, Greg. 

Greg: Go ahead. 

Marium: I was going to say, I was going to say, I feel like in the US we have very similar, like structurally I think the US is ageist. Like social security as completely become deprioritize, like in like the policy decisions that like we're making and even voting on, we're not taking care of the elderly, like at all anymore. So I think there's a PR I think like socially, I guess in like policies across, I guess, modern civilisation, perhaps, I don't know, like the past couple of years just people are investing less and less than taking care of older people. Yeah, go ahead, Greg.

Greg:  I was going to say Fay, on your point around language, so there was a section on language, the least popular word was old. Elderly only had 38%. So I have heard older people have been used in the past. But the most popular was mature. 

Fay: Ahhh. I might start using that next time I speak to my gran. Just talking, just talking to a mature lady. 

Greg: Like a cheddar.

Fay: [laughs] Yeah. Like a cheddar [laughs] Bless her. Bless her. It is interesting though, just about going back to your point, Marium, just about the US and just with the election last year and just kind of how some of the hatred that came out against Biden for being more mature, there we go using the language for being more mature and just kind of seeing, like, obviously I know a lot of this was coming at, you know, some of this was coming from like Trump party and, you know, kind of the Republican side, but like using age as such a negative thing in that kind of way. Yeah, it was just interesting to kind of see ageism in real, you know, in a real life, of course, in real life scenario, it happens all the time, but you know what I mean. In that kind of spotlighted scenario. 

Greg: But isn’t it a weird kind of dichotomy that the contradiction there, where you would never see somebody younger than those two. I mean, they are probably, there were two of the oldest candidates, but you very rarely see somebody younger than that running for president. And it's like that weird kind of little window where it's like, well, you're too young to run for president. How could you be president? And then it's oh, well now you're too old to be president. So yeah, I think it's very complex and I think, yeah. You can't all. Sorry. I just don't know. I don't think people know what the fuck they're doing. So, you know, they make on the fly or whether they think a person should. 

Tereza: Yeah. Definitely. 

Marium: And it goes the other direction too. Like, I mean, I've just seen, you know, like, especially like recent college grads who have immense experience in their college experience, in terms of like skillset and stuff like that, just be seen as completely under-qualified for certain jobs because they just don't have the years. The years in like a professional setting, quote-unquote. But they've got the years and actually like volunteer experience and actually managing like hundreds of people at a time, stuff like that, you know? So I feel like ages. Yeah. I mean like, young people get discriminated against all the time [laughs] I remember like when I was applying for jobs after college and I was a grassroots organizer in college at the time. And I'd done like grassroots organizing for like five years. I'd like run for like student government. I had actually gotten more votes and had a bigger election than some of our areas. 

Fay: Yes, you did. 

Marium: And I left college and I was like, okay, I know how to do this. We can do this. And I'm like applying for these jobs and they're just like, no, the student organising world is not like the real world. And I was like, what are you talking about? I literally did real-world things, while I was in college. We were like, we were doing real-world things at the time, like lobbying at city council and all that kind of stuff. Like running. Even like, some of them are national campaigns, like student debt cancellation stuff, and that wasn't seen as legitimate because you were doing it at a super young age. And so therefore you weren't qualified. So it was very difficult to really just convince people that, you know, um, as a young person, you have skills,. 

Fay: So the sweet spot of age then is like 30 to 40 and everything either side is shit [laughs]

Marium: Exactly. 30 to 40. Well, I mean 30 to 40 year old men I think are doing great [laughs] because even a woman. Yeah. I know once you’re like a woman, like yeah. they're gonna start targeting women no matter what, I think. She looks too old. She looks too young. Yeah. [laughs] 

Greg: Yeah. Um, I'm very happy in my lot in life. You know, I’m getting to the point in my life where I can have that prejudice. 

Marium: My door is opening up for you Greg [laughs]

Greg: All the time. All the time. I literally don't have to do anything and it all works.

Fay: [laughs] Oh God. Quote of the week or the week. I don't have a pivot for our like tech news of the week. I was trying to think of a pivot, but I don't think I actually have it. 

Greg: Yeah. I mean, I'd be a little bit worried if you were able to pivot into this. 

Fay: [laughs] Yeah, exactly. So, Greg, what was happening for tech news of the week? 

Greg: It's been a pretty heavy week, really. Um, I was really struggling to find news this week because of everything that's going on in Afghanistan. But then also we had this story in the UK, around the shooting, the mass shooting in Plymouth, which, you know, really hits home in the UK because we don't have them very often. So it was quite a shocker. And there are two elements to this that I wanted to talk through today. One is that the police forces are now looking at potentially reviewing people's social media accounts, in relation to the firearms licenses and applications. And we were talking about this last week. We were discussing Apple's move to try and prevent child sexual exploitation by using an algorithm to look at everybody's photos before they uploaded them to the cloud. So we were talking about that thing of privacy versus protection. And then also, I wanted to talk about the background and why this shooting has happened. But let's talk about that topic first, of privacy versus protection. The Devon and Cornwall Chief Constable actually said they wouldn't look at internet usage in relation to firearms licenses, because they viewed it as an invasion of privacy. So what do we think it's a telephone.

Fay: It’s a tough one. It’s a tough one. But as the host, I'm going to pick on Tereza [laughs] What do you think?

Tereza: Yeah. And it's tricky. Of course you want to find any way that you can get just to feel more protected in a way that if you can prevent it, of course you want to have a look at that. But then also it's the scary element of having looked at your social media accounts and where would that live in terms of next steps? So it is a violation of privacy, but of course, you kind of like need to find the thin line in between what counts as part of a protection and what would bring, if you start looking at social media accounts for different reasons afterwards. 

Fay: It is such, especially working in social media as well. It is such kind of a delicate one to kind of navigate because obviously, on one hand, would doing these checks prevent catastrophes, you know, like what's happened in Plymouth, like what happened at the Captiol building in the US last year. So it is that question of. You know, privacy versus protection. And obviously when we kind of associate, oh, you know, they want to see my social, they want to see this. You know, my instinct gut reaction is to go, oh my God, no. That’s such an invasion of privacy. But then on the flip side, so many people live their lives so openly online anyway. It is a really difficult one to kind of land on and I honestly. Yeah, I don't think, I mean, I don't think anyone knows the right answer, but like from a personal perspective, I'm not like yes or no, like either way. But yeah, Marium, Greg, what’s your kind of vibe on social media checks in this kind of way?

Marium: I just think that they should abolish guns [laughs]

Fay: That would be the easiest answer. 

Marium: let's do that [laughs] Then everyone can keep their privacy as well. But I mean, since clearly they're not going to do that. I do agree though. I mean, there's this thing that happened with social media where the rules, you know, like when you interact with human beings in real life, like, there's just rules. There's just things that you, you don't do. And you do, like, there was no introduction of like rules in like the world of the internet and, you know, like social media and connections at all, which is where I think a lot of this is coming from. Like, nobody taught us how to appropriately engage with each other in this world. So like, I've always just wondered, like, should we start like teaching kids, like how to do that? You know, like there's like social media etiquette, you know, that exists. Um, But that's kind of like what I was thinking and I mean, this is kind of a segue though a little bit, but like people, back on your point, fay, like I do agree if you put stuff on social media, you put it out there, like you've already agreed to do it. The problem I think happens is when people don't realize that they're doing that and they just don't completely understand the platform. And so it kind of works against them and they make a lot of mistakes. That's problem number one. And then problem number two is, also I think that there's like we just said, there's no objective way to really, I think it's really hard to be objective and making decisions on what this person may be thinking. A lot of the times when you're looking at this type of information. so I'm actually coming from the reference point of there's a program in the United States called the Preventing Violent Extremism program and it's a classic example of how you can misuse. If you don't have the right social cues set in place, you don't have the right people making decisions on what is considered a reason to track someone or to consider them dangerous or anything like that, you can cause a lot of problems. So the preventing violent extremism program was originally designed post 91 to kind of like protect communities from like Muslim, like not Muslim, but like, you know, anyone who's quote-unquote radical. But the problem with that was they were turning normal things that Muslims did into signals for radicalisation. There was like literally no Muslims working in like the NSA or anything like that, to even tell them that's kind of a normal thing that you do. Like as a Muslim, you go pray like in the morning. But that was considered like a radical act. And so what happened is basically these people got put on lists and they're just regular people. So that's the other extreme, you know, like where you don't have, like, there's a really hard way to be objective around this kind of stuff. But I don't know what the answer is. I think people are just going to stumble through it. A lot of lives will get messed up. A lot of good things will also happen. And then that's kind of how things like this kind of go. So just abolish guns [laughs] 

Fay: I think that's the answer and we'd all be a lot better off probably. There we go, Greg. Problem solved. Problem solved [laughs]. What were your thoughts?

Greg: I was really surprised to find that half a million, so 500,000, people in the UK own a gun and have a gun licence.

Fay: I know. Where are they getting it from? Is this just just people that live on farms and stuff and want to go….

Greg: I guess a lot of them are, but they can't all be. He didn't. So yeah, it's weird when you compare it with kind of the US, I think there's like 30, 40% of people there have got licensed, you know, you're talking millions and millions. So it is quite a difference. When we talked about privacy versus protection last week, talking about Apple kind of scanning your phone for pornography, I kind of likened it to the police having access to everyone's home and just checking to see if you were doing anything nefarious. What's different with this case is if you're applying for a firearm, you're, you're applying for something you're saying I want the right to own something that could kill other people. So I kind of feel like, yeah, if you want to own a firearm, then you've got to accept some loss of privacy because, you know, you want to be in a position of power. So you need to hand over information to the authorities to say, this is why I should be allowed to own it. So while I agree with Marium, just get rid of guns to make things a bit easier but in this case, I kind of feel that a loss of privacy is appropriate. And these are the examples of where the police should be allowed to do these things and not just have a blanket access to kind of prevent it. So the other half of this story, which is where that could have potentially helped is the fact that Davison, who committed the crime was a self-proclaimed incel. So an involuntary celibate and posted lots of videos and things online talking about that issue. We've talked about incels on the podcast before but for those that don't know, incels are fairly right-wing extremist young men who hate all women because they believe that they're being forced not to have sex and the language that they use is basically around wanting women to be subservient to all men. Weirdly this w started on the internet as a forum was started by a young woman, who was genuinely like going through a bad situation who couldn't get into, had come out of a relationship was really struggling and had a very long dry spell and started this community to kind of support people who are in the same position. She ended up I think getting married maybe. I'm not too sure, but she, yeah. I remember reading an article a few years ago when she was just like, what the fuck did I start? 

Fay: What did I do? What did I do? 

Greg: Yeah. She was devastated because basically, she left that community, and a few unsavoury types got involved and just twisted that kind of view. And it's interesting. So almost 40% of reports were sent to Prevent. So Prevent is kind of the UK version of the anti-terrorism thing you were talking about there Marium. So 40% of reports since the UK’s national scheme were marked for mixed ideologies and incels were part of that mix. So it's a really confusing kind of situation we're in now. It's not kind of like groups have one single belief that kind of right-wing extremism is getting mixed up with these incels. And, um, yeah, so there was a lot of questions asked about whether incels should be marked as terrorists but the John Hall QC, the UK independent reviewer of terrorism legislation basically said the use or threat of violence, the definition of terrorism, the use of threat of violence to further an ideological cause was broad enough to prosecute any incel inspired violence anyway, that you wouldn't necessarily need to specifically classify them because the way that they act is the terrorism, and not that group in itself. And if you try to identify and he was saying because of this mix of ideologies, if you try and say right, this group, because it's so muddy the waters now then you've run into these issues. But a lot of this has being engendered online and, and, you know, it comes back to that point Tereza was talking about before of Reclaim Social. Like how do we bring that positivity back and break down these groups and stop the grooming of young men. 

Tereza: Yeah. And it's interesting, like every time you read sad stories, you just realize how you can literally find everything on the internet and how things are really shaping up one finds another, and then you build a community. And in that case, it wasn't even the intention of the girl. It's so interesting realizing that it started as a support network from a woman. And then imagine her seeing how that turned out. So you really don't know how things go and of course, you need to pay attention and keep an eye on the things that might cause something way more serious than how it starts.

Fay: Yeah, really, really, really good point, Tereza. And I guess just to try, and it's this case, isn't it? Again is the power of social media for good and for bad. But what would you say, you know, having run Reclaim Social. You know, multiple years now, if there is, you know, if there are people who are listening to this podcast who are kind of like running communities and, you know, the more we see like, um, Negative kind of, you know, negative kind of news stories about social media and especially working in that space as well. It's hard, like it is, you know, it's really hard to kind of work in this kind of, you know, work on these different platforms. And obviously, you know, you're trying to do good, whether that's for like charities or community groups or whatever you're involved in. So if there is kind of anyone sort of out there, that's either wanting to get involved in Reclaim Social or just wanting to kind of feel more positive about the tech that they're working with, what would kind of be your top advice for somebody in that sort of position? 

Tereza: It's probably not about being positive, especially when you're running a campaign where you're planning the campaign, or if you're part of a community group, it's more about being prepared because you know, when you start something online, you can expect anything. So you don't just start something. Even if it's the most positive campaign, you know, that there could be just one person running your days, things happen new. So you need to have monitoring in place, be alert, keep an eye on what's happening and really just expect anything. And if you see a negative comment, don't just start engaging and start being angry and things like that. Try to have a plan in place and try and keep it down really. and not just have it backfire on you. 

Fay: Yeah, get the great Londini involved. Tik Tok’s masked vigilante. Talking of campaigns that probably weren't expected. Obviously big kind of news over here. Um, in terms of social media and stuff over the past few weeks, there's been the RNLI. Obviously, they came massively, hugely, under fire. very wrongly because of some racist comments that Nigel Farage had made. And I know I popped this in a little bit last minute, but we've been speaking about the owl and ally quite a bit, um, on the podcast. So yeah, Greg, what's, sorry. I don't know why I'm putting you on the spot. 

Greg: [laughs] It’s your story. You’ve literally shoehorned this in literally for the pirate angle.

Fay: I did, I did. This is true. This is true. But basically a Go Fund Me has started where people are want in the RLI to buy a new owner ly hovercraft called The Flying Farage. It's actually gained, um, how much did it generate? Over £121,000 at the moment.

Greg: Wow. 

Fay:  Yeah, the news article that I popped in had said that it had reached £40k, but yeah, it's jumped completely, over £120k. It’s good to see with people kind of like coming together just to show their support, um, show their support for the RLI. So yeah. What do we all think about, you know, these kinds of campaigns, sometimes these kind of campaigns, it was all pop-up in reaction to what's going on. We saw it quite recently as well with the English supporter created the Go Fund Me account for the German girl who came on the fire from English fans being racist. So yeah. What’s our kind of take on these, kind of, I guess, campaigns that sort of pop up in their own, right?

Greg: Yeah. I’d be interested to look back at some of the other ones. So I remember when Trump first got in power and throughout actually there was a number of similar campaigns in relation to The Wall and few other things where, you know, in competition of their ideals, they get people to kind of group together and fight against it. It kind of reminds me of what Tereza was saying before about, you know, you go on and you're expecting loads of trolls and, but things, but actually, then you find out that there are loads of really nice people out there. Kind of with RNLI, where it was like, oh yeah, you know, they've done really well off the back of people having to go at them. So yeah, I kind of feel like it's good, in a way it's bad because you have to have that bad thing to happen before the good thing can happen. YBut if people need a kick up the bottom, then at least something good is coming out. 

Fay: Yeah. True. Very true. What about you, Tereza? 

Tereza: I was thinking the same, obviously it's not a good result having all that negative PR. But then in the end you ended up getting even more and great support and really great messages far and wide. So it's good in the end to actually see the funds that they’ve raised. 

Fay: Have you had any kind of, um, I guess almost sort of mini-campaigns sort of born out of like Reclaim Social? Like have you, have you kind of experienced anything like. You know, well, you've kind of logged on one day and you're like, what the fuck is that? Like, what is actually going on?

Tereza: Well, I was thinking when the whole COVID situation came up and everyone was just shocked and we couldn't stay on social beause you would just worried about the virus. They kind of like do a reclaim 2020 campaign because we were all talking about 2020, and we were saying like, I can't deal with finding 2020 anymore.But then it was a point that you didn't feel that you even have the energy yet to organise that because everyone was still reacting. Everyone was trying to adjust working from home. And every time I was discussing that and I was like, that's a brilliant idea. Like we were just done with 2020 and now of course we're dealing with 2021. So it's still relevant.

Fay: Hopefully the end of the tunnel is nearly insight and fingers crossed [laughs] Trying to be positive, trying to be positive. Yeah. Talking about positivity, Greg. What's our nice and finally for today. Is it a nice one?

Greg: Yeah a really nice one. 

Fay: Okay, cool. Good. 

Greg: Yeah. So this clever dad from Leeds. Basically, he wanted to help kids who had illnesses or disabilities or various conditions to feel a little bit better about their situation. So, you know, kids in hospital with, you know, various machines hooked up to them and medical prosthesis. He was kind of like, let's make some toys that look like them. So using his 3D printer, he's created teddies and other things to show like a teddy with a pacemaker or a teddy with a leg missing and a prosthetic and things like that. So, yeah, he's kind of, uh, looked to kids and kind of made these toys. It's like a Build A Bear workshop, but a more inclusive version of it. Yeah, so it's a really, really nice idea. 

Fay: Awww. 

Marium: Also, the article you shared apparently says that also uses the 3D printer to make 12,500 PPE items for hospitals? 

Greg: Yes. 

Marium: Like this dad [laughs] Oh my God. 

Fay: Superdad. 

Greg: They were probably better than some of the ones that were bought officially for the hospitals as well.

Fay: Oh, it's just really, it's just really sweet. It's just a nice story. And it must've been like a good, you know, going back to what you were saying Tereza about 2020 being a bit of a suck fest all round. A pretty good hobby to pass the time. Great, great, great, and inclusive toys. I kind of think back to my hobbies over 2020, which just included watching a lot of shit reality American TV, but there you go. 

Greg: [laughs] 

Fay: But I did discover a love for The Bachelor, so anyway, whatever. But yeah, this is so nice. It's just such a nice story. Is he still making them Greg? Like, has he got like an online, I'm just trying to see if I could, if he's got a website where I can tell people to visit but I'm struggling to find one. 

Greg: Yeah. No, I couldn't find one either. I think it's more of a hobby rather than a, you can go and buy them, but maybe if he gets enough interest, Build A Bear might give him a section in their shop. 

Fay: That would be amazing. Build A Bear if you're listening, I don't know if they will be listening. You never know. 

Greg: [laughs] 

Fay: You never know. We can dream big. We can dream big. 

Greg: Yeah. Build A Bear’s CEO is one of our biggest fans.

Fay: You mean it's not an actual bear? 

Greg: [laughs] 

Fay: Did you ever think this as a kid, I'd just be like, go and build a bear. Like why is it not bears that are working? No, clearly, no, just me. Just me. 

Greg: No It would be weird. 

Marium: No. 

Greg: That would be weird. 

Marium: [laughs] I was taught that bears were actually dangerous [laughs] They’re animals. [laughs]

Fay:  I will fully admit this is the thing having lived in California and seeing a black bear, my take on bears is somewhat a little bit different to before moving to the US. Thankfully, that's all we have time for today. Everybody including Build-A-Bear CEO out there, thank you for listening. Tereza, how was that for you? Where can people find you online? Anything you want to plug? Now's the chance. 

Tereza: That was really fun. Thanks for having me. You can always find me on Twitter. I spend an insane amount; more than what I would admit, on Twitter. At Tereza Litza and at Reclaim Social.

Fay: Perfect. Great. Well, everyone go follow Tereza. Take part in the campaign as well next year and see how we can get involved. Listeners, what do you think it says here? We'd love to hear your thoughts. I always cringe when I say this. Especially when I'm hosting. Cause I'm like, maybe don't want to hear people's thoughts podcast, unless it's from the Build A Bear CEO.  Anyway, please do get in touch with us on Twitter. You can find us at Tech For Good Live or you could email us at hello at tech for good dot live. We'd love it if you gave us a nice iTunes review as well and told your mates about the podcast. Please do spread the word, keeps us going. Uh, thank you to our producers as well for producing this podcast. Having to wade through all of the audio clips, stuff out, deal with our shoddy kind of sound files on occasions, a big thanks to them. Don't forget as well. This podcast is actually entirely run by volunteers. You may have guessed that from the production but anyway, we do survive solely on sponsorships and donations. Right now one of our primary goals is to make sure that all of our podcast episodes are accessible by making sure that every episode is transcribed. Sadly, this does cost money and we do desperately need your help to make this become a reality. So if you've ever tuned in to one of our podcasts, attended one of our events, uh, followed us on Twitter, engaged with us in any way, please do consider just chipping in for just the price of a cup of coffee. You can do that on tech for good dot live forward slash donate. And finally a big thank you to Podcast.co for hosting it. Right? That's it, everyone. Bye everybody.

Greg: Bye.

Tereza: Bye.

Marium: Bye everyone.