TFGL2021 - S1 - Ep9 - Zoom Fatigue Is Real

Welcome to this episode of the Tech For Good Live podcast.

Host Bex is joined by TFGL team members Greg Ashton and Kristiana Zunde 

Our special guest this week is Emily Casson. Emily is a multi-award-winning fundraiser, digital expert, and speaker. She is currently Digital Marketing Manager at Cats Protection and was named one of Fundraising Magazine’s Top 25 fundraisers under 35 in 2018.

Transcript

Bex: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Tech for Good Live podcast. We're officially in March 2021. The main difference between March 2020 and March 2021 is, well, the spelling. Here in Britain though, March means it's time to fill up the paddling pool, get the barbecue going because it's a whopping 10 degrees C. On today's episode we'll be discussing social media a whole lot as usual. Facebook has finally reached a lawsuit settlement after six years. Lawyers are billing by the hour. Will we be super following each other on Twitter soon and are we all suffering from Zoom fatigue? All that and more coming right up. Joining me today we have Kristiana. It’s Kristiana’s first time on the podcast. She's been working hard behind the scenes producing our episodes and it's great to have on the show. Hello, Kristiana. 

Kristiana: Hi. Happy to be here. 

Bex: Excellent. Well, you won't be saying that after the podcast [laughs] Greg is back on the podcast, as reliable as a 2014 Ford Focus and just as attractive. Greg, hello.

Greg: I'm not sure if that's a compliment. It could be. I don't know. Thanks.

Bex: [laughs] We'll leave it at that. And me, I'm Bex. And we also have a guest with us today, Emily Carson, Digital Marketing Manager at Cats Protection. Hello, Emily.

Emily: Hey, and thank you for having me on. And I know you were joking about having paddling pools out but I’m up in Newcastle and on Sunday, my boyfriend’s kids were in swimming costumes, we had ice cream. Full on summer holidays up here on the weekend.

Bex: I was gonna say, are you sure it was warm enough for that but Newcastle, so you know where it’s at. You can handle that. 

Greg: Yeah, March is the month where we all forget that it's actually quite early on in the year. And everybody has the tiniest bit of sun and everybody just loses their mind and thinks, right it’s summer now and then traditionally what would happen is we then have really terrible weather in April, June, maybe May. And everyone would feel really depressed and then they remember that it wasn't summer and then summer suddenly appears for like a week. But thanks to global warming now, it’s just hot from March.

Bex: I do feel like everyone forgets that that happens every year. And it's like it's new every year. Like September is always sunny and everyone always forgets that. And they’re like, oh it’s winter now.  No no. September is going to be great. Like, a nice surprise at the end of the year. But yeah, everyone seems to completely forget that these changes in weather happen. Although I've done the same this year. We are due snow here on Tuesday and I can't believe it and I'm so upset about it. So Emily, I say your Digital Marketing Manager of Cats Protection and I'm trying to act cool because I'm a bit of a fan of cats. But yeah, what’s that like, is there cats everywhere?

Emily: Bizarrely, there’s not. Like a lot of our team does but whenever you go to Head Office, we've actually got donkeys down there and we've got sheep.  And everybody’s dogs are in the office. Everyone comes down expecting all these cats and they’re like, why are these donkeys here and sheep and everything. 

Bex: I'm against this. I disagree. 

Emily: A lot of my colleagues do have cats.  There are many cats that make hourly appearances in our team calls. 

Greg: Wait, wait, Emily, you’re gonna leave us….why are the donkeys there?

Emily: Because we’ve got a partnership with The Donkey Sanctuary. 

Greg: Ohhhhhh.

Emily: Did some donkeys, so at Head Office, the staff down there look after the donkeys in their lunch hour.

Bex: Not to make your job sound easy but digital marketing manager and cats feels like a dream.

Emily: I’d say that but then I'd also say it also makes life a lot harder because the Internet is made for cats.  So I work in, kind of income generation, so that makes it harder, how do you prompt people to donate when there is cat content everywhere. And how do we make our charity cat content really stand out from that?

Bex: That’s such a good point. There’s cats everywhere. You're just wading around in loads of other cats. Okay, yeah, I totally misjudged. It's much harder than I thought.

Emily: But I am full of random cat facts. Did you know ginger cats are more likely to prompt people to donate?

Greg: Is it true that you often find black cats in homes, you know, in shelters and things because people don't like them because they're not very Instagrammable?

Emily: Historically, that’s been true. We've run National Black Cat Day to kind of bust some of the myths around that. But we're actually going to, spoiler alert, stop running that for this year because we've done so well with that campaign, they’re no longer the hardest ones to adopt.

Bex: For goodness sake, I adopted two black cats because I thought they were hard to adopt and I hate them.[laughs] And it's your fault.

Greg: [laughs]

Emily: [laughs] I think they definitely, historically, have been hard to donate but we've done some work with influencers to show people how you can photograph them because that was a big thing about people wanting the photogenic cats for their Instagram and now they are quite popular at the minute.

Greg: Nice work. Congratulations. It's really good to hear these good success stories.

Bex: So we should probably move on. I’m just hogging the space because of cats. We will move on to Stat of the week rather than Cat of the week. Facebook privacy lawsuit over a facial recognition becomes one of the biggest settlements ever leading to $650 million. Kristiana, you were the researcher for this podcast so would you like to tell me more about this topic?

Kristiana: Yeah. So the suit was filed in 2015 and finally reached a settlement on Saturday. So it follows Facebook's tagging feature, where basically when you post a photo, and you tag someone in it, it creates a link to that person's profile. Basically, the tag programme then used previous scans of other photos for like new photos and then that was basically said to be, it violated people's facial recognition and stuff. So they put a lawsuit against that. So the final settlement will pay $345 to anyone who is interested in compensation. I mean, firstly, how do people know that scans of their face from previous photos have been used to then go and say and you know, and ask for the compensation?

Greg: Yeah, that's a good question actually. Often with these things, it's really hard to find where you can go and request that. I guess this has also been quite heavily linked to a lot of the topics that we've discussed over the years where that identification of individuals’ faces as then being used by biometrics and facial recognition and farmed out and used as library sources for so many of the AI systems and facial recognition things we've discussed on the podcast. It has had really far reaching kind of implications. $650 million though, is that like, a drop in the ocean for Facebook, isn't it?

Bex: Yeah, unfortunately,

Kristiana: I think it'll be interesting to see if other countries kind of pick up on this because I know it's a kind of big issue for a lot of people at the minute. They just weren't aware of what a lot of social media companies were dealing with their data and their faces. So I think increasingly consents coming to the fore is that people understand things a bit better, so it would be interesting to see if there's going to be similar lawsuits around the world.

Greg: Yeah, that's true. I think, based on this being Illinois,  we probably won't be getting $345 Bex.

Bex: No, okay, fine. But I only wanted it to annoy Facebook. I didn't want it for me. I would burn it just to annoy Facebook. But Emily, this is like maybe a little bit of a difficult question, because we go backwards and forwards on this a lot here. But like, there's a new report about bad things Facebook are doing like every day. I suppose Cats Protection uses Facebook as a platform. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that? Like the ethics of Facebook?

Emily: I think it's something that we have discussed a lot kind of with M&T and things about the ethics because Facebook's currently our biggest channel for digital acquisition for supporters. So in terms of income, it's a really important income source for us and we were lucky enough last year to be a partner of Facebook. We did some pilots with them and some research. But then we have done a lot of work looking at the ethics of it, and kind of what our supporters would be happy with how we're using it. So we do use it quite heavily and we see massive benefits from income and education messages but then we do take a stance on things. We would never upload supporter data for Facebook. So there is a facility on Facebook for both email addresses to target them for advertising. We've made the ethical decision internally to not do that. So it is a lot of kind of weighing up the benefits and what our supporters want, kind of versus what we all know, as much as Facebook. Like all big tech companies, what we are doing with the data and trying to be as open with our support is as possible about what we do when looking at a lot around privacy policies and trying to make that really understandable. Because I think a lot of this is kind of hidden in terms and conditions and I don't think it's enough to just say it was in our privacy policy. It's like, well, was it actually clear enough that people could understand what they're doing with the data.

Bex: Yeah, I think it's great that you’re considering that. I think we've come a long way. I remember uploading that data for clients back in the day and being fine about it. But I think we're all working through like what is a good idea and what isn't now, especially when charity income is so tied to Facebook. 

Emily: And I think it's looking at the kind of difference between what is technically legal and actually what's kind of ethical and moral and your supporters would be happy with you doing. And I will say that kind of other charities, and I have no judgment, they all make different decisions, it's weighing up for your charity. Some don't use Facebook at all, some do upload data and I think it's important to involve your supporters in this conversation and see what they'll be happy with, as well as kind of weighing it all up for your charity. And it's not an easy decision.

Greg: Yeah, I think, I don't know, I’d agree with your decision. I think given the focus of your charity, there's not huge links between much harm to cats and Facebook. But I think, you know, I always look at any kind of human rights organisation that is still using Facebook, and it feels a little bit uncomfortable, from my perspective. So yeah, I totally agree, it is very much on a case-by-case basis, that the charities are gonna have to make that decision themselves. But I do think a lot of them are just going to look at that perspective of, well, it is a major income source, so can we really afford not to use it. But then, you know, missing that wider impact of using that, like, you know, genocide in Myanmar?

Emily: Yeah. Well, it's definitely kind of looking at it, like I say, we’re a cat charity. So when we are serving our supporters on this sort of thing, they're very clear they want whatever will be best for the cats. Whereas different charities that have different aims, they might find that kind of not compatible with Facebook, whereas we made the decision to stick with it and invest heavily in advertising as well as organics, and I’ll be honest, it’s been really great for us. We've got 10s of 1000s of new supporters through Facebook, so we really see the value in it, particularly at a time when for fundraising a lot of other avenues have been shut off. We can't do retail. We can’t do face to face fundraising. It has become increasingly important to us. But I think we are, like many other charities, looking to diversify and looking at what different platforms and stuff we can use. But I will say, I think there's ethical concerns about kind of social media platforms full stop and certainly for the big guys but it's not just Facebook.

Bex: Charity news of the week! There's a new call for charities to be exempt from the insurance premium tax. That sounds really boring but I'm sure it's really good. Kristiana, can you tell me more?

Khristiana: Yep. So research has found that 72% of charities are concerned about funding during the pandemic and 32% are worried about existing beyond the crisis. The lack of fundraising has basically meant that charities don't have as much money to like, do the work that they do. So the exemption from IPT would mean that they can use that towards the work that they are already doing, rather than having to pay it.

Bex: I don't know what IPT is. Is it a lot?

Greg: It’s 12% base rate, and then there's a 20% higher rate for things like travel and some motor vehicles. I just had a quick read on IPT. It's just not clear to me how, I mean, obviously, if any tax is going to be impacting charities but it's just not clear to me how much of an impact this is having on charities. So yeah, certainly any kind of saving that they can get but I think it's largely based on, you know, the kind of physical holdings assets that you might have. So like vehicles and buildings. So for your smaller charities, I'm not sure what impact it's gonna actually have on them. For your bigger ones who own properties, certainly it's going to help those guys out. But I think for the smaller ones, I don't know what impact it would have. Maybe I'm wrong. It’s tax. It’s very confusing.

Emily: I think it’s part of wider measures that charities are calling from for the budget. Like, for example, an uplift in gift aid from 20 to 25%. And that would bring in an extra £360 million. So there are some kind of big asks going in. Whether the government will agree, is another story but I think that it's part of a wider package and trying to get the message out that charities are never more needed, and have been hit with a double whammy over the last year of a massive increase in demand while not having the resources and often the ability to fundraise for that. So hopefully the government will listen to that. Historically, they haven't always but I know there's a lot of pressure on revenue. Like I say it's much wider than the insurance to say that there are a lot of different things that they could do to make charities’ life just a little bit easier at the minute.

Bex: Are you hopeful then? I mean, I know this podcast will be released after the decision has been made. So like putting you on the spot, what do you think is gonna happen? Are you hopeful that charities will get some of what they need or not?

Emily: I just want to say, can I just record two versions. 

Greg: [laughs]

Emily: I don't think we're gonna get everything that's being asked for across the board.  There’s a lot of asks gone in for emergency support and things but I am hopeful that it'll be something announced around the charity sector, because I think there has been increasing calls for it and some politicians are on board with it. I did a conference last week and Andy Burnham was our keynote speaker, and he's kind of backing the campaign that charities are never more needed. So I am hopeful there will be some progress at least because it is heartbreaking seeing so many charities go to the wall. So in my spare time, I'm Chair of the Chartered Institute of Fundraising North East and I see there's members that we've got up here and individuals and often they’re really small charities that have closed down over the last year and the ones that are still here are increasingly like, what’s that stat,  like 32% worried about their survival. So we're not just talking about how can they thrive in future but actually, often in cases, how can they actually survive to be around long enough to rebuild. So I think the government does need to take action on that and hopefully, there will be at least something in the budget.

Greg: And no one's going to be happy after tomorrow, because you've got the situation where it's, you know, we're still in a pandemic, we've still got to try and help businesses to survive. But then also, we've spent a shitload of money on, you know, helping those businesses survive and charities and everybody else. So like, yeah, do not ency them really. It's gonna be a tough year.

Emily: Yeah, I think there's definitely no easy decisions in this but I think it’s hopefully making the right decisions. And charities are so important across the board or across society and like I said a lot of them have seen a massive increase in demand in their services. So they are really needed. But the public as well have often been very generous because when measures like gift aid would help, because kind of the public have been giving in great numbers last year, and a lot of charities actually probably had record years because many individuals were keen to kind of show their support.

Bex: Yeah, I'm just selfishly thinking that there's quite a lot of cat shelters near me. So if any of those go bust, I'll have to adopt some more cats and I already have five, and they cost me quite a lot of energy, money and tears. So yeah, I think we should, I would propose that these budget proposals should be passed. Sorry, I've been doing a lot of sociocracy training and I'm talking in sociocracy now. We will put a proposal in and then we will pass it. That's how that's how it goes in sociocracy. So that I think we should pass those budget proposals for the cats. What will the cats do without the budget proposals other than coming to my house? So Tech News of the Week. Twitter has announced some new up and coming features. Do you want to tell us what these features are Kristiana because I have not been following this. I don't know what super follows is.

Kristiana: Well, so Twitter wants to adopt a similar model to the likes of Patreon, where basically users pay a monthly subscription fee to get extra content. So for Twitter, that would be like tweets, videos and newsletters not available to those who wouldn't be subscribing. And yeah a feature as well to include super follows. So it didn't really say much about superfollows but I'm guessing you would like, super follow someone, and then that would basically bring you to subscribe to that person's account and get those extra benefits from their content.

Bex: I don't really know what to make of this. I mean, I suppose if they decide to move to a paid model, and we should all be paying for content more, I do believe. But, yeah, are they going to get rid of ads? Because I mean, I don't see that that's going to be possible because they're not going to get enough people paying for it, I guess. But I would consider this if ads went away. Maybe. I don't know. How does everyone else feel about this?

Emily: I am kind of mixed on this one, because I can see the logic behind it and how it's working on other platforms. But then I'm always on Twitter. And I love the democracy of it that everybody can see everything. And if you start putting some of it behind a paywall, is that going to create a kind of tiered system where you’ll get very different experiences and some people missing out on content? So I think there is so many uses, potentially for this from celebrities and even charities and companies kind of with special offers and that sort of thing, but then it does concern me that might change a bit of the nature of Twitter and a bit the culture that I love so much.

Bex: Yeah, absolutely. Not to diss bloggers again, because I know they're all just trying to make a living with their content, but is this gonna unearth a bunch of Twitter influences that act in a different way? Because I don't need that out of Twitter really. I’ve managed to avoid it so far. I guess I can still avoid it if I don't pay for it. 

Greg: Yeah, if I could just stop getting those crappy clickbait articles from bloggers because it is behind a paywall, I'll be really happy. But yeah, it feels weird. This is like a stopgap. They didn't want to do a blanket fee. I don't know why. Maybe it's kind of like if we do it this way, then people have got more choice, they can decide which bits they want to pay for. But it just feels there's a lot of work then to do on your part. If you want to follow people, then you've got to find the ones you want to follow? And how is that all going to work and managing your subscriptions? And then there's that whole question of like content, you know, like, what are they producing? Obviously, they're doing it through Patreon. Does that mean the type of content that we're seeing on Twitter is going to change? Because you know, who wants to pay a subscription for, yes, they've extended the length of tweets, but who wants to pay a subscription just for more tweets. It just feels a little bit weird. And then also, like you say, Emily, I think that the danger is that kind of tiered system of who gets access to that content, only the people with the money can access the really good content. And then, you know, it leaves certain people with less power and less reach, trying to reach their audiences who maybe have less money. And yeah, it just all feels a little bit weird. The other part of this is they're setting up communities, which is kind of like Facebook groups and that has had huge issues on Facebook. And Facebook is a much nicer place than Twitter, so Jesus Christ, you’re setting up comminutes on of the most aggro sites known to man and you think everything's gonna be okay. Yeah, they need to have some serious protections in place for that. 

Bex: It’s aggro but it's no YouTube comments section right? I think they also done a Clubhouse sort of thing that is already better than Clubhouse or something. I don't really know, I don't really follow these things. But somebody was saying the other day,

Greg: I don't know, I don't know, I've not seen anything about that. There's nothing in the post I've seen about them doing anything like that.

Bex: I may have made that up then.

Emily: I think years and years ago, when Twitter first started it used to have a similar kind of audio feature and they definitely tried to kind move in that space, but I think that Clubhouse over the last couple of months has really taken off and a lot of their competitors are then looking at that and seeing what they can do in response. 

Greg: This feels weird from Twitter, though, because they have done fuck all for years, other than adding more, you know, character counts to their tweets. Like the stories thing, is it stories or reels, I can't remember which who copied who first. But I mean. that was just a copy. Other than them copying other platforms, they've not done any kind of feature release in a very long time and this just seems like a lot. And a very big change for them. 

Bex: And all we wanted was to be able to edit our tweets, so I don't know where any of this has come from.

Greg: Yeah, there's a premium you have to pay for that now.

Bex: On Tech news. We're also all suffering from Zoom fatigue, probably. I mean, I feel that. I haven't read this article. This article probably tells me that Xoom fatigue isn't real, so shut up Bex right? Is that what happens? I should read the articles before I go on these podcasts. But yeah, go on Kristiana. Tell me if I have just talked a lot of rubbish.

Kristiana: No. The article was actually saying that Zoom fatigue is very real and is actually more stressful than meeting in real life. Jeremy Bailenson, who is like a Professor of Communication of Stanford Virtual Human Interaction Lab, said that causes of zoom fatigue include closeup, eye gaze and increased self evaluation from staring at your own video. I can't relate to that because I don't do any of those things. 

Greg: [laughs]

Kristiana: But yeah, they basically suggested that people could reduce the size of the video of other people, so they don't feel as close up, and also hiding your own selfie after joining a zoom call. Apparently, that's the thing.

Bex: Yeah. And I didn't know it was a thing until more recently, but I've been doing that and it's way better. Like, because you do stare at yourself weirdly. It's really weird. But I hide myself now. It's so much better.

Greg: Yeah, I have the other problem currently. Everybody I work with doesn't turn their cameras on. Which sounds great but then, when all you're doing is talking to people, and I've not met any of these people, because I started in this job not that long ago. So when all you're doing is talking to like, black holes on your screen, it just gets a bit weird. It gets really weird after a certain point. But yes, I definitely agree that looking at yourself while you're talking is just yeah, it used to be fun.

Bex: The whole videos on thing, like poor Tash Snoke slash before Hyper Island. She's been on the podcast before, but we have had so many Twitter chats about Zoom videos on and Zoom videos off. And I do mostly have my video on because it makes other people feel more comfortable. But I would rather have it off every single day. And I don't think it does harm interaction. Today, I tried something really radical and went for a walk, whilst on a meeting and so obviously had my video off. And it was the most wonderful experience. I listened more carefully to the conversation that was happening, I felt way more present. I was able to go on a walk, which I wouldn't have been able to or otherwise, because my day was really full. I was just so much happier. But the people on the call were a bit weird about me having my video off because it was quite an interactive thing. But it didn't stop me interacting in the slightest and it was definitely better. So and you know, I also advocate for Kristiana, like you said, not being able to see. This is your day to day life. So you're like, what on earth are these people talking about with the videos on? 

Kristiana: Yeah, the thing is, like, even in my uni lectures, I mean, the tutors do ask people to have the cameras on but then sometimes I find that I often get told that in classes, I'm pretty much the only one with my camera on and I'm like, hang on I’m the blind one here. Why do I have it on and the rest of you don’t?

Emily: I have some thoughts on this because I know I’ve got some colleagues that are kind of hard of hearing and they find it so much easier to lipread. So they really struggle when people have their cameras off. But then I also know people kind of don't want to show where they're living or kind of just want a break from it. So I think it's important to have both but I have noticed a real increase in kind of Zoom fatigue and just Zoom meeting full stop. I spend my entire day going from Zoom to Teams. And like, I worked remotely before this, before COVID and all my team work remotely but we never used to have quite so many meetings. I definitely noticed that everybody that used to be office based was suddenly home based, it was like hey, we just had meeting after meeting. We'll just replicate that online whereas I think now people are increasingly moving away from that, so we're doing things that work, like having meetings free times. Like, Thursday afternoon is a meeting free time just to give people a break, when over lunchtimes you’re not supposed to book meetings. You at least get a break and can get up and can go for a walk and talk or something like that. But you're not just sat in front of a screen all day.

Bex: Yeah it's like everything's become Zoom hasn’t it? Before, when it was a catch up over making a coffee in the office, it's now Zoom. Like a conference, it’s now Zoom. Training, it’s now Zoom. Your meetings are now Zoom. Yeah. Like your social life is now Zoom. It's just a bit much.

Greg: Or Teams.

Bex: Oh I get so excited when it's like a Google Meet.

Greg: And then you start the Google Meet and realise this is why we don't use Google Meet.

Bex: No, I'm okay with Google Meet. Zoom though does give me a bit of a panic because it probably won't work for some reason for me. Like every time. Teams hates me. But yeah, yeah, Zoom fatigue is real, I believe.

Greg: What's interesting in this as well is, they say that one part that they kind of frame is the fact that this is not new. So part of the reason we're experiencing this fatigue is because the experiences are fatiguing, but also because we don't know the right way to handle these situations because it is so new. So there's a huge cognitive load because we're trying to work out like, should I be doing this, shouldn't I be doing this? Like, what's the right way to act in these situations. They made reference to that article I read to like, when lifts became a thing. So people were getting in lifts and they felt really, really awkward because they were like, well, what do I do? Do I look at the person in the lift, do I just ignore them? So all these people were getting in lifts then just leaving stressed because they were like, I didn't know how to handle that social situation. So hopefully, over time these kind of stresses will ease as we get kind of into a groove of like, what's appropriate on a Zoom call.

Emily: I think it will get easier as lockdown kind of eases so people can actually do other things in the evening because I think one of the reasons fatigue is so at the forefront with Zoom is because like you're saying like everybody spent all day in front of a screen and then all evening chatting to friends and family and stuff. And that's all you can do at the minute. Whereas it never used to be like that. You used to have the odd kind of meeting during the day but you wouldn’t dream spending the evening doing the same thing.

Greg: I think we'll have all the challenges. So I think that will ease the fatigue but we're gonna end up with that thing of where we're kind of halfway house, where some people are in the office. some people aren't and the rules of etiquette there will change. So you'll have that situation where half the room is calling in from home and everybody else is sat around one computer in the meeting room. And you can't hear a word that they're saying and they're off having conversations on their own and those people who are at home are like, guys, can you include us in this? Yeah. So I think that's going to be the next Zoom fatigue. The idiots in the office not including people.

Emily: Yeah. I hate that. I've been a remote worker for about ten years now and often have to dial into Head Office and staff down south and one of my big things is like remote for one, remote for all. That’s at least dialling into the meeting and everybody does do that, even if they're in the same building, they will all dial in so that everybody has that same experience. Butlike you say, you don’t have the kind of one voice on the big giant screen in the meeting room while everybody else is meeting and then forgetting you're just there in the background, when they're having their coffee breaks and stuff. So I think like you say, the etiquette and things like the list took a while to develop. We just haven't got there yet for this sort of situation, in terms of what is best practice, what should we all be doing. Everybody's a bit in the dark and yeah, it will be interesting to see how we feel going back to the offices and also does that change things. Now that we’re used to working remotely, is remote for all more of a thing than it was when I was beating the drum on it a few years ago?

Bex: So we're on to Rant or Nice of the Week. And this looks like a rant of the week, by the looks of it. And who has suggested this? I don't know where this has come from. Normally we check this before we start but today we did not.

Greg: Yeah, I saw this. Me and Kristiana are talking about the podcast and I saw this and I was like, ohhh Bex is gonna love there. So I sent it across because I was like, there's some real fun conversations to be had here.

Bex: I'm interested to see why you thought I would like this, Greg. That didn't mean to sound as accusing as it came out. I'm genuinely curious as to what about this you think I will say.

Greg: There was two angles about this. One was that whole thing of, hey, you've got some interesting information on this, come and give us all that juicy detail for free so that we can benefit from your knowledge. But also there was an aspect of it which was, and I've not seen it completely. I'm waiting for the torrent of value signalling brands getting on the whole International Women's Day bandwagon and I think we're going to kind of, some of the initial things I've seen, I think we're going to see kind of peak value signalling from brands this year on hey, look, we really like women, here's why. Because we got this woman to come and talk to us about women and we didn't pay her.

Bex: Yeah, obviously, value signalling is not okay. I suppose the thing that's slightly confusing me about this is, working for free as a woman to progress the women's movement is kind of something that is discussed within this article. And I feel very conflicted about this because I just don't believe in money [laughs] So we should all be working for free. And that really confuses me because I will absolutely work for free when I think it progresses a movement that I think it should do, because that's the only way that things get done. But I also agree that we should be paid for the work that we do, especially you know, I believe in value in this sector as well. You know, if we talk about the social good in the nonprofit sector is not valued and should be valued. And we should have more money in it, if we want to operate in a system that does operate with money, then we need it to be able to do what we do. So we should value our work in the sector. So I think, you know, I get conflicted when I talk about that because, you know, the whole concept of money and people pushing for money and more money, is why we're in the situation that we're in, where we've got people that don't have any. And because of those inequalities in the world, and you know, that there's five people with billions of pounds and billions of people with no pounds, is all because of people pushing for more money. So I don't know, like, I've been really thinking about this lately with running my own business. And you know, I'm really keen on, we don't charge above a certain day rate because we don't need it and I'm happy with that. And I know, I don't necessarily think that's right, I know that there's other people who have different views on this, who are  like, no, I'm going to charge more because corporations charge more and I want people to value the work I do. And I agree with that as well. I don't know if I'm making any sense here because I am clearly conflicted over this entire thing. But I fully think that we should just not have any money [laughs].

Emily: I think I kind of have mixed thoughts on this one as well because I do a lot of volunteering and stuff for free and kind of give my time up for that and actually organising stuff for International Women’s Day next week for free. But I think I also sit on the Equality, Diversity and Inclusion panels for the Chartered Institute of Fundraising and something we're really big on is making sure it's inclusive. And I can completely afford to do things for free, other people can't. Even if it's getting expenses or childcare and things and I think it's really important that we have the ability to have a platform that everybody can be heard on, and kind of breaking down the barriers for that where money is a barrier and that we can get around that by paying expenses, make sure everybody's voice is heard. But International Women’s Day, I'm kind of a big advocate of having that, but I also think that every day should be like that. Like, I'm named after a suffragette. So this has kind of been part of my life story for many, many years. And somebody actually asked me a couple years ago, why are you still talking about gender equality, are we not there yet? I wrote an entire blog for a fundraising magazine about my response to that. And so I think it's like, we're definitely not and I think COVID kind of brought out more and more of the inequalities for women. So I think it's more important than ever that everybody's voice can be heard and not be disadvantaged because they can't afford it. And I think with the brands as well, some of it, it's like, would a man have asked, would a man have been paid or been asked to be paid for that. I think you’ll get some doing charity work, then some big brown. I think that's what the article was talking about in terms of a brand that offered to pay in goods rather than money. I mean, I  hate that. It's like, if you want to get a speaker in for their kind of value and opinion, then you don't pay them in kind. Like that's not going to pay mortgages and stuff. And so I think that it is really important that we kinda make a splash and one of my favourite things, to go back to value signalling is actually, there’s somebody on Twitter that every year shares the posts that the brands have put out, alongside what their gender pay gap is. That sort of campaigning, really kind of makes it in a gentle way, but making it really obvious which ones are value signalling and which ones are kind of really walk in the dark.

Bex: I think the diversity point is really, really important, especially in the charity sector. You know, we say this every week, I think, but I love the fact that I think, isn't there more people called Dave and Gary on charity boards than there are women at all, which is interesting. And yeah, making space for that might involve paying people properly.

Emily: Ieah, I think there's so many horrifying stats like that around, with all the Johns and the Daves in the world. And don’t get me wrong, some of them are doing amazing work, but it's about ensuring that everybody's voices are heard. Like we were creating a conference last week, The Northern Fundraising Conference and we were so conscious within that we wanted everybody's voice to be heard, not just around gender, but also race and everything. We wanted a real balanced mix, and not just your traditional middle aged men, who do have value, I'm not kind of doing them all down, but it's about having a balance and ensuring women’s voices are heard in that.

Bex: And I think that idea of recognising your own privilege as well is really key because I think that's exactly what I've done in considering our day rates and whatnot. Because, you know, I'm considering that I'm okay with that and the people that I work with are okay with that and we're doing that deliberately to not take for the people that need it. I guess that's kind of where that was coming from. But yeah, I think like considering our own privileges is really key.

Greg: I'm going to be a white middle aged man soon. I'm really looking forward to having no value. 

Bex: We’re going to delete you. 

Greg: Yeah. Just switch off for a while. 

Emily: Definitely, you will definitely have value. I think it’s just thinking about how you can be an ally.

Greg: I don’t want to add value [laughs]

Bex: It's fine. Don't worry about that.

Greg: Just looked after by, you know, the state and hardworking women for a decade or so.

Bex: On that note, we'll cheer things up with our and finally. This is about pets, so it's relevant. It's relevant to Emily. But yeah, do you want to tell us more about this Kristiana.

Kristiana: Absolutely. I love this story. I think it's quite cute. So it was about a 19 year old girl who, I guess accidentally, started her own business during lockdown. She was a dental nurse practitioner but the pandemic just basically meant that she wasn't really certain what was going to happen with her career. She started sewing as a hobby during lockdown and one of her friends asked her to stitch a cartoon picture of their pug and then it got shared around on social media. And then more friends asked her to do the same thing. And everyone shared it around on social media because they were like, impressed by her work. And then she got this really massive demand from even people that she didn't know, to do their pets. So it went from dogs to cats somebody asked her to stitch a picture of their sheep as well and then it sort of progressed further and it got to like, away from pets and signatures of loved ones. And yeah, now she owns her own business in her living room, just from the love of other people's pets.

Bex: Awww. That reminded me of my first ever podcast was actually a live radio show that we recorded and put out as a podcast 15 years ago. And we had a segment in it called People's Pets. Pets Corner in People's Pets. And there's something you just said that reminded me about from fifteen years ago. Oh my God. I feel old. So yeah, this is cute. I like this. Have you managed to make money off any hobbies, Greg, well, you've been locked down?

Greg: No, this doesn't make me any money at all. You know, if it wasn't for the fact that I just get to, you know, rant every week, I probably wouldn't bother. But yeah, otherwise, no hobbies make me any money.

Emily: We found this really sweet spot with people that love cats and love crafting and we held a craftalong at the weekend. A kind of virtual event where people could make their own little felt cat in the model of their own cat. That went down really, really well and people went mad for that. There were some amazing pictures on Twitter of like, people that kind of really got that likeness, and I really love crafting and really love their cats.

Bex: I’m so up for this, I'm on it. I'm gonna get on it. Inspired [laughs] Nobody wants to see my felt cats. On that note, that’s all we have time for today but thank you for listening. And Emily, how was that for you? 

Emily: Yes. Really interesting. Thanks for having me on.

Bex: Oh, thanks for coming and sorry for being weird about cats. I can't help it.

Greg: I’m looking at your cats. Like just constantly throughout this whole podcast, just tails wagging. 

Bex: Yeah, everyone wants to get involved. She clearly knew what was going on and wanted to try and get out. She was actually going ‘’Emily save me, can you put me in your shelter?’’ That's probably what was happening. But yeah, Emily. So where can people find you on the internet?

Emily: I’m everywhere on the Internet. The easiest place is probably Twitter. I'm @emilycaston on Twitter, and very active on that.

Bex: Was there anything you want to plug that you're working on at the minute?

Emily: Ooooh. Well I think, kind of follow all the various Cats Protection. We’re working on a lot of Innovation events at the minute. So watch that space for some exciting things and I'm also cheekily hiring at the minute. So if anybody wants to come and join my team and work with cats, then check do that out and apply for that.

Bex: Amazing, that sounds a great job. No one should apply because I'm having it.[laughs].

Emily: [laughs]

Bex: I love my job. It's fine. I am my own boss and it is brilliant. But yeah, I mean, I had loads more questions about cats but I feel like I should wrap it up. So I will not answer the questions I have put here. It’s the end of the podcast. Listeners, what did you think? We'd love to hear your thoughts. Get in touch on Twitter at @techforgoodlive or email hello@techforgood.live. I also want to thank our editors who although don't often come on the podcast they're always editing away in the background. And Kristiana has joined that team and has been editing most of the podcast recently. So thank you so much. How was it actually coming on the podcast live?

Kristiana: It was quite fun, but very nerve wracking for my first one. But yeah, I really enjoyed it.

Bex: You did take on the like hardcore research role for your first one as well. You were like yeah, I’m in. I'm gonna do that

Greg: You didn't just drop in. Like, you planned the whole thing.

Bex: I also have to say thank you to Podcast.co for hosting the podcast and I'm also going to throw out a cheeky little ask for giving us a nice iTunes review and tell your mates about the podcast. We've made nearly 200, did you know that? What are we doing? I'm so sorry, everybody. I can only apologise and that's all. That's all. We're done. Goodbye.