TFGL2021 - S1 - Ep5 - Mittens, Memes and Disney - Show Transcript

Welcome to this episode of the Tech For Good Live podcast.

Fay Schofield is hosting today, she’s joined by TFGL’s Greg Ashton and Ben White.

Our special guest this week is Kirsty Marrins.

Transcript

Fay: Hello, hello, hello and welcome to a new episode of the Tech for Good Live podcast. It's finally February, the longest January in existence is finally over. Hope is on the horizon. But that was until a rodent in Pennsylvania or as Tony Phil predicted earlier today that we're in for another six weeks of chilly winter. Cheers, Phil. That's right folks, it's Groundhog Day. Joining me on the podcast today we have Greg Ashton, just like Bill Murray's film The film Groundhog Day, Greg's life is repeating before his very eyes. Another week on the podcast. Another week talking about tech for good. Another week listening to crap intros. It's either dedication or desperation at this point and we feel for you Greg. Hi, Greg.

Greg: Hello. I have nothing else to say. Literally nothing else.

Fay: Ben White. Ben is back on the podcast earning your stripes. Ben's determination to uncover the truth about what's going on in the tech world can be likened to Carl's determination to hunt gophers in also the Bill Murray film, Caddyshack. Thankfully, Ben brings a much higher level of competence to the table. Hi, Ben.

Ben: I disagree. I think that's a very flattering comparison for me. Hello Fay, nice to see you again.

Fay: You too. And me. I'm Fay Schofield. I'll be your host as we navigate today's podcast episode. Thanks for putting up with me and my Bill Murray related puns so far, even though I have no doubt maybe most of them got lost in translation. And we do have a guest with us. At least we have that going for us, which is nice, which is also a Bill Murray pun but there we go. Kirsty Marrins is with us today on the podcast. Kirsty is a Digital Communications Consultant who's been working in the charity sector for over a decade. A writer for the third sector and a charity comms trustee. Bloody hell Kirsty, where do you find the time? Welcome to the Tech for Good Live podcast. We are very excited to have you with us. Do you have a favourite Bill Murray film by any chance?

Kirsty: Well, I'm a child of the 80s. I'm going to have to go with Ghostbusters. 

Fay: Love it. Love it. Right. That's our crew. Greg, what's going on? 

Greg: Start of the week. So it's more than just a meme. Bernie Sanders mittens have raised $1.8 million for charity. So if you've been living under a rock following the inauguration and missed the meme that was Bernie Sanders. So he was wrapped up for the cold sitting during the inauguration and people have used this picture quite extensively across the internet. But he picked up on this and started selling merchandise: T shirts, sweatshirts with this image. And has raised 1.8 million in the last five days. 

Fay: Nice. 

Greg: Has everybody seen the meme.

Kirsty: I did. I've got to say my favourite one was where somebody, well two actually, somebody had put him under the sorting hat under Harry Potter, which I thought was pretty good. And then somebody else had put him on like the Council of Elrond in Lord of the Rings and he just sat there with his mittens behind like Strider. Those are my two personal meme favourites. But yeah, that's great that he's actually leaning into it. And I still keep seeing the odd meme now and I'm like, God love ya. Well, you know, the brands that are like two weeks behind, and they're like we’re still here for the mitten memes. Cmon pals.

Fay: I love how some charities got involved. So like GOSH, for example, they had done waiting for fundraising events to start again dot dot dot. And then they've got like runners, you know, like on a road and Bernie sat in the street and then they tagged a bunch of other charities who then replied with their own. It's really good.

Greg: Yeah, so apparently the mittens were made by someone called Jane Ellis, who is an elementary school teacher who has a side business making mittens out of recycled wool.

Kirsty: It's like a Disney film this, isn’t it? 

Ben: A socialist Disney film. Would recycled mittens prompt charity giving spree?

Kirsty: You couldn’t make this shit up even if you tried. 

Ben: It’s true. 

Kirsty: Oh God. 

Greg: Yeah and it’s really nice. 

Fay: I think the mittens look a little bit like oven gloves.They are quite quite stiff. Like I could imagine him taking you know, a really hot casserole out the oven wearing those. 

Greg: Don’t you find though, most gloves don't really keep your hands warm. 

Fay: This is true. 

Greg: Like a good pair of mittens is worth its weight in gold. 

Ben: Most gloves maybe maximise the surface area. That is the problem of losing heat so the men can squish it all together. Very effective. Crap for holding things other than casserole dishes.

Greg: This is a classic Tech for Good episode where we're talking about the efficacy of mittens and gloves.

Kirsty: It's reached that point in the pandemic, Greg, don't question it.

Fay: So Greg, like who is he raising the money for, obviously apart from?

Greg: Like, a whole host of people. So you've got area agencies on ageing, Meals on Wheels, the Monk community, action agencies, Feeding Chittenden, which I'm assuming is a place and that they've not just mispelt children. The Chill Foundation.

Kirsty: They've been typing with mittens and trying to tie up children. They got chittenden. 

Greg: Yeah. So like just loads of local organisations. So I think this is going to be, especially in the climate currently, although they've not been in as much of a lockdown in the US, I think that you know, every charity is going to be really happy if it’s an extra influx of some cash coming towards them.

Ben: Yeah. 

Greg: And certainly what sounds to be like quite small localised organisations. 

Ben: This is right up your street isn’t it Fay? I was gonna say, it is the sort of whimsical ephemera of like memes and social media. And I'm just thinking, how could you systematise this and make it scalable. It’s lovely. It's absolutely lovely. 

Fay: It's just cute. Do you know what I mean? Like America has produced some rotten shit over the past year so to actually have something, and I say that with love because I lived there for two years, but it's like for them to actually have produced a nice meme. I mean, you know, Bernie Sanders wearing mittens donating to chittenden. Well, you can just imagine that he's trying to type it from like his little. 

Ben: I mean, a little chittenden running round his feet

Fay: The thing I love about Bernie Sanders as well, isn’t he the cousin of Larry David? He’s related to Larry David. 

Kirsty: Oh, I didn't know that.

Fay: Yeah. And if you like, listen to them both speak and look at them side by side. You’re like holy shit, they are actually related. 

Greg: If you have a blood test to confirm that they are related, you can't tell them apart. 

Fay: Well, that too. That too. [laughs] Have you seen any other like, I know I shared my favourite memes about him sitting under the sorting hat and being at Council Elrond and obviously Kirsty, you took a very more, a better approach in sharing what GOSH had done. But was there any other mitten means that we've kind of seen out there in the wild that made us chuckle before we... I just like talking about mittens. This is cute isn't it? But yeah, any more memes that we've seen across the internet?

Greg: I think my favourite was a Schitts Creek one [laughs] It had him as part of the cast. That was a good one. 

Fay: Oh God, how about you Ben? Have you seen any good ones?

Ben: I've seen it in my office, which was quite a good little piece of work someone did on our Whatsapp group. Because our office is freezing right now. The boiler’s bust but why not fix it?

Fay: Why not fix it, just get everyone branded mittens instead. Greg, charity news of the week. What's happening and this was actually, like Kirsty, you helped pull this agenda together. Like you're a very active guest, thank you. We appreciate that.

Kirsty: Well, I wanted to make sure there was something I could actually talk about. It was slightly advantageous to myself to give you stories I thought I could actually talk about.

Greg: Top tips for future guests. If you want to sound like you know what you're talking about, just give me the stories and I’ll run with them. Yeah, so I'll introduce the story. But then there was something that me and Kirsty were talking about before. And I'll tell you the nicest way, I'll do it in a nicer way than what I did when we were talking about earlier. So, the Chief Exec of NCVO, Carl Wildling is stepping down after 18 months. In doing that, he has suggested that he wants somebody to fill the role who is not part of the past. So when I initially saw this article, my first instinct was, oh God, what has he done? And I think that's kind of an indication of the charity sector and the kind of things that we've seen over the last few years. But by and large, everything I've seen has been very, very positive about him. And I think he is genuinely interested in not being that old white guy stuck in that role that's holding things back. And he's genuinely saying, I want somebody to step in here and take over and take the organisation forward. So I think it's actually a positive news story, which is great.

Kirsty: Yeah. I mean, when I first saw it, I think I saw, I don't know, maybe it was a third sector, breaking tweet that he had resigned. And I remember being like, absolutely shocked. Because I was like what? Like what's happened? So immediately you read the news article and my initial thoughts were, wow, this is amazing. Like, I think this is and I even tweeted, like a quote tweet, like this is real leadership. You know, knowing when to kind of step down, when to hand it over, if you really want to progress in terms of like, inclusion and diversity. And I think he's right when he says, you know, it's time for someone new, not part of the past, because his predecessors Sir Stuart Etherington had been in the role for 25 years. And whilst Cole's only been CEO for less than two years, he has been at nNCVO for 21 years, I think it is. So you know, he has firmly established in the charity. I guess the thing, the kind of cynic in me or the sort of (not that I think of myself as a journalist) but you know, having that kind of like journalist hat on, I think it's like stepping down with immediate effect. And it's like, oh, like, how come? 

Fay: Yeah. What’s he done?

Kirsty: Well not what’s he done but I feel like there's something more to the story but I don't know what it is. Because I just, I don't know, why would you step down with immediate effect. That doesn't really make any sense. If you're just making way for someone new, you would just advertise the role, do your notice period and then step down?

Greg: Yeah, I did notice he tweeted about his interim changeover. 

Kirsty: Yeah. 

Greg: And that's not happening until the end of March. Yeah. So he's not kind of, although it is immediate, it doesn't seem like it is, like today, but I don't know whether that's..yeah.

Ben: Is that the American use of with immediate effect, which actually means I will serve my notice period. 

Kirsty: Well, maybe.

Ben: I've heard that. People say that with immediate effect. Then they'll be there for six months on gardening leave. 

Kirsty: So just looking at the article, it does say he's relinquishing the role with immediate effect but will remain within NCVO in an as yet unspecified role until the end of March. So it seems like he's stepping down as CEO immediately, but he will stay within the charity in another role until the end of March. 

Greg: Yeah, so it's Sarah Viber that's taken over from me.

Kirsty: Yeah that’s right. 

Greg: Yeah, I did wonder if it was so that the slightly less, you know, he's done something horribly wrong cynic in me that was kind of thinking, is this like the charity version of creative differences? So you know, when a director gets sacked from a movie because he doesn't agree with the direction, and they kind of say, well, we had creative differences. But I don't know. Everybody has been so positive about him and given his attitude and his habits and the things he tweets about, it just fits with his character that he would see as like, it's my role here is not to make this happen, it's to step aside and make it possible for somebody else to make this happen.

Kirsty: You've got to admire him for that.

Greg: Yeah. 

Ben: Really clearly setting the agenda for the future as well which is kind of you know, ultimately part of your job and leadership is kind of leaving something behind and that's a really good legacy, a really clear message to send out. So thinking about it, I'm definitely tired and emotional at the moment, so I could definitely use that as a euphemistic excuse for resignation or behaviour. Other good ones are that the band split up. Musical differences is a good one. 

Greg: Yeah. There was another other article actually that I spotted and the theme was very, very similar. So this was in relation to Christian Aid. The PR Chief there was basically saying, what would it mean for us to really work hard so that we don't exist in 75 years’ time. And I just thought that was such a ballsy thing to be saying and it's something that we've talked about on the podcast before, about that whole idea of, you know, a charity’s goal is to not exist anymore. Like if you've achieved your goal, if you've achieved your mission, then you shouldn't exist anymore. But actually, the operations and the way that charities work doesn't necessarily always marry up to that. It's kind of, how do you preserve this organisation? And I get that because you're kind of thinking, well, we're never going to solve these issues. But there's a bit of conflict there and to hear two quite senior or very senior members of the charity sector, saying our goal is not to be here anymore, I think it really signals quite a shift in culture across the sector. 

Fay: Yeah, no, I agree. And it's encouraging as well. It is encouraging to be seeing the shift. Me and Kirsty, were actually DMing a little bit earlier today, just talking about game stuff and it's taken me a minute to kind of sit and be like right, what the fuck actually went on in terms of Gamestop. So Greg, paint us a picture. What actually happened with Gamestop. 

Greg: So this has been kind of brewing throughout January and through Feb actually as well. And it kind of came to a head in the last week or so. And it is such a huge tech story that we had to talk about it. It touches on topics that make zero sense to me, which is the stock market, and how that whole system works. GameStop, their stock was up as much as 700% at one point and the reason for this was that new apps, so one Robin Hood, which has been widely publicised, but there are other ones that have been doing it, have tried to make trading and stocks more accessible to the general public. Not necessarily more accessible, and making them easier or making them more simple, the complexity is still there. So you could go on and buy stocks and completely burn through loads of money. So it is, you know, it's fairly risky in that respect. But they made it a lot easier because you know, the systems that were in place previously, were quite a barrier to just Joe Public going in and investing. Now, this is where it gets really, really complicated. So this has been referred to as a meme stock and I thought it fit quite nicely as we've got a bit of a meme trend going on throughout this podcast. And the reason for that was Redditors and other forums started organising and saying, let's buy this stock. And the reason they wanted to do that was because GameStop was largely a failing organisation and the traditional investors, the hedge funds, were short selling against it. So to basically make money off its failure. Now, the best description of what short selling means that I saw, that makes some level of sense was, you borrow a book from a library, you sell that book for, say, £20, you then buy another book for £16, the same book, and then you give that back to the library. So you make £4 out of that deal. Now, I don't know how that fits with stocks and things like that but basically, in order for that to work  that price needs to be fairly static. So if a load of people then go online and start buying loads of these books and the price shoots up, your ability to make money has suddenly disappeared. And that's exactly what they did to these hedge funders. And a lot of people have kind of said that you know, this is the day where the the system is broken down by normal people, the rich and entitled who've been making loads of money off it have suddenly, you know, found out that the this idea of a free market doesn't necessarily exist anymore because tech has disrupted that. What does everyone think? Cuz I think there's a lot of layers with that as well. Because you start looking at, well, how much of a risk was it to them? Have they broken the law? Does it matter? Were they breaking the law with the hedge funds like? What does everybody think about this and does it make more sense to you than it does to me?

Kirsty: This is why I said two stories because I was terrified that something like this would come up and I'd look like an absolute idiot. And so just for full disclosure, my husband is a trader. I know everyone's going to hate me now. But we balance each other out, you see, I do all the charity work and he works. 

Fay: Good and evil.

Ben: Evil couple. 

Kirsty: What’s that sorry?

Ben: You’re like a net zero evil couple. 

Kirsty: [laughs] Okay. So I was having a chat about this with him during my lunch break and I kind of felt like we should have invited him on to talk about this. And yeah, it's really complicated. I kind of didn't really get it. I do get the kind of short selling. So basically, the traders or hedge funds, I wouldn't say they bet against companies failing, they just bet for the stock to go down so that they make money. So I just wanted to say that because that did sound really, really evil when you said, they kind of bet on the failure of companies. It's more just about the price going down, so they make some money off it.  But I don't know, I just feel a bit like, I'm really conflicted with this. Because in one way, I think it's great. Like I have some friends who do the stocks. You know, they have the trading apps and they do it in their spare time and they make some money off it. And sure, you know, why shouldn't they but I kind of feel like this was a collective, almost, I don't know. It’s almost malicious in a way, like they were trying to kind of cause some big disruption. And I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Ben: I don't know absolutely nothing about this whole situation other than what I've kind of speedily read. If you start trading, essentially betting you, as you say you're betting on something decreasing in price, which isn't exactly the same as betting on failing, but you are kind of. Like the original, I think the original intention of investment is that there are a bunch of initiatives out there, the ones that seem most promising and make the best case attract investment, they get more capital to grow, become more successful, raise everyone's standard of living and that's generally, you know, the basis for capitalism in a good light. And then, as Greg says, with the library, you're kind of then taking that system and this works in the abstract as a system. If you can bet on things growing, why shouldn't you be able to build things decreasing? That makes mathematical sense. And I think some people have beef with that for my terribly limited understanding, because essentially, you can start to profit on value being destroyed by getting in there first. And maybe even I think there's also a short sound, or maybe even that kind of loss of faith of the market prompts another spiral and other people lose their investment because of that initial demonstration. And what these guys have done is, the next abstractedly weird stage of that, which is you find someone who's failing or struggling, you wait for the moment that the market starts to capsize and

then you block all kinds of avenues for that to happen. And then therefore, the market panics and tries to then buy back what it can, resulting in this massive increase in stock. In the meantime, GameStop is no better or worse a company than it was. Through any of these crazy fluctuations of values. Like nothing has got better or worse about them but yet they've gone from being a failing company to a massively successful company, and it bears no resemblance to reality. And that is kind of like, maybe we've gamified this a bit too far. You know what I mean? Maybe actually, now the whole intention of the market as a mechanism for allocating resources to the things that benefit society, we’ve swung too far away from that. What are GameStop doing here? I think now I've got like an amazingly strong, powerful position in the market, but loads of boxes of Xbox One titles in a shed somewhere. 

Greg: They did but then it's kind of levelled off now. So I think their stock is down by 60%. So I don't think it's as low as it was, but it's certainly taken a huge tumble.

Ben: It’s crazy isn’t it? There’s screws everywhere, you know, doing what they do in this kind of climate. But yet there's these two massive forces on either side of them that are waiting to pounce on each other and they’re the only failing company in the middle. 

Greg: Yeah. In that respect, I agree with Kirsty. Hedge funders, you know, you might not agree with what they're doing and there is that question about what their actions, the results of those are, because it's not necessarily entirely abstracted. It does have a real world impact, potentially. But at least they're getting something out of that, like they're making money. Whereas these kind of meme traders aren’t necessarily getting anything out of it. What they're doing is they're stopping the hedge funders from making money so that you know, there's examples of one hedge fund losing 7 billion because they weren't able to short sell the stocks. So it is very much a vindictive kind of action.

Kirsty: Yeah. They had to get bailed out by another company because they would have gone under, basically.

Greg: Yeah. But what it has done, I think that is interesting is it started, maybe not in the UK but certainly in the US, is it’s started a conversation to look at not just what the meme traders are doing, but also what the hedge funders are doing, and whether that whole system is correct. Because if you've got somebody doing something which seems morally shaky and then if somebody does something also morally shaky against them; this was the thing that I found really interesting was that if the lawmakers suddenly turned around and said, we're going to stop you doing that. So say Robin Hood, the app closed down and stopped people trading and that was when the Senate and other political figures started getting involved and say, hang on a minute, these hedge funders are able to still operate, why are you stopping these people from operating? And that's when you start raising these questions about, is it a free market. If we're allowing one group to do things that are morally questionable, but we're not allowing another group, where does the power lie in that situation? If it's supposed to be a free market, whether we like these things or not, they should be free to do them. And I think that sparked a conversation, you know, within areas of power, you know. The White House is interested in it and things like that, that they're gonna start looking at this. 

Kirsty: I think for me, though, it's more about the question of, like, collective power and like, organising. And this feels a little bit like, I mean, like, just look what's happening in the US in terms of like, you know, all the right wing. I mean, I'm not comparing these people to right wing but it just feels like this kind of mess organisation, which is not always for the greater good, if that makes sense. And I feel like that is what is quite scary in a way. You know, if all these individual people trading, you know, it's like collective buying power in a sense. It could just get out of control. And I think what people don't realise is, sure, if you hate bankers and hedge fund people, you know, but if they collectively do this, and it causes those companies to go under. Like, what happened to one that's had to be bailed out by another. One, you're talking about job losses on their side. B, you're talking about all of that money has gotten basically. It's not a good thing. Like would that lead to another financial crash, for example. Would all of us be in trouble, like another kind of massive kind of world financial market crash? Like, I don't know, I could be talking absolute bollocks. I don't really know much about this. 

Ben: If you do know about this, why don’t you write in and help us out. Wild speculation.

Greg: Never ask an economist for help. They can’t help anyone. 

Ben: Nobody can tell you why things went wrong. That's the job of economists. Where the forecast is in reverse. And economists themselves told me that.  Sorry, carry on. This is definitely a tech story though. Tech is kind of like democratising, for better or worse, this information and terrifying people as you say Kirsty, allowing a lot of people to organise quickly in ways that just simply were not previously possible. So this is a total tech for something sorry, we haven't quite worked out what the good or bad bit is but it is kind of like a fascinating illustration of how it’s completely changed the nature of this. I don't know if it's fair to get a video game from a crappy video game retailer, but it's not a great space to be in, right.

Greg: I think that's really important, Ben, because that tech story is, we're seeing exactly what things like social media have done but it's happening to something that is a lot more tangible. Namely, you know, like the stock market and money. Even though you know, it's not real money. It's like fake imaginary money, somewhere in the cloud, it is still a lot more tangible than like, societal norms and culture and stuff that kind of is being subverted through social media. Now, we've seen it done through something like stocks and the stock market, I think people are going to start realising now like, holy shit, we need to probably start looking at this stuff and regulating it because it can have a genuine impact on the real world. 

Ben: Kirsty, your husband might take issue with this but the idea that this is not real money. For the sake of factual but yeah, you're right, Greg.  It’s illustrating a lot of things that may be happening in a much less visible way because it doesn't involve finance and currency. But yeah, it's kind of a sort of terrifying demonstration of that.

Kirsty: I've got to say, though, just talking about like mobilisation, and people like moving en masse, and maybe I don't know, maybe my glass is half full today. But one of the nicest  thing that came out of this story, I don't know if folks heard about this, was about the Robin Hood society that's actually based in Nottingham. So this was a little organisation, a small UK group dedicated to the Nottingham folklore hero and they have gained 60,000 followers on Twitter since this story broke. And I'm just looking at the Rolling Stone article now and the guy is called Bob white, he’s in his 70s and the picture is amazing. It's him in his garden, holding a Robin Hood book. But the latest tweet that they put out was like, lovely to have all these nice followers, can we just check that you know that you're not following, sorry that you are following the worldwide Robin Hood Society in Nottingham, not the Robin Hood app?

Ben: You have to get on to these people. They should start tweeting like mediaeval stock tips like, memes are gonna be big this year or you can't have technology emerging. Definitely one for the future. 

Fay: Bless em. But it's just like, yeah, that just really cheered me up. 

Ben: That is brilliant.

Fay: Out of all this, it’s like oh sorry, just so that you know, we're not the trading stock app. We’re just based in Nottingham. 

Ben: So you're saying it’s the same chaotic force as the burning of recycled mitten sales also power the massive surges in the stock market and all this kind of stuff that Greg alluded to. 

Fay: Exactly, exactly. You can find positivity in anything Ben. You've just got to look quite hard on occasion. Actually, in terms of kind of thinking about, you know, what's nice that's happening in the world, I think we've got a rant or nice of the week. This was thrown at the very last minute and I haven't actually even had a chance to have a look at this article. So I'm making myself sound like a slight idiot when I'm reading off rant or nice of the week, as you can clearly tell I'm reading directly from the agenda, but never mind. But this is all about Martin Lewis. So Kirsty, Greg, what's going on? Fill us in.

Kirsty: Yeah. So basically, Martin Lewis posted on Facebook, and I think he might have tweeted it as well. And I think he actually said it on Good Morning Britain, I've stopped watching that show because I can't bear Piers Morgan. I think he might have said it on there. Basically, he was just advocating for charity staff to be paid

Fay: Awww. 

Kirsty: And you know, they should rightly be paid. Because the public, as we all know, seems to have some kind of issue with people working for charities and being paid. They think we should all just be volunteers. And that we have, you know, all this free time to, you know, kind of run a charity and they don't seem to think about the skills and the expertise that you need. And obviously, charity CEO pay comes up all the time. You know, there's always someone sort of harping on about why charity CEOs should be paid the amount of money that they’re paid. And Martin Lewis just sort of said, you know what, actually, they should be paid because, you know, they have the skills. A charity is basically a business. It's like a good thing to do. So, yeah, I think the charity sector was really pleased with that because he's obviously very high profile and to have someone in our corner. 

Fay: Makes a change. 

Kirsty. Yeah. Charity staff should be paid. And so actually, I've just got his Facebook post in front of me. And just one thing that he said, which I thought was really nice. He said, I have set up two charities. I want the staff to be well treated. The idea that wage costs are a waste is wrong. Charities do complex work that needs organising. So yeah. 

Fay: Good on him. I’ve got to admit, like I've done my stint in-house at charities and kind of, you know, oh hi small child. And being on those social media front lines where you're doing the community management, you've got people going, why are you being paid and why’s your CEO being paid this, that and the other. I want the money to go directly to x and just the amount of responses that you have to be sending back over and over and over again and you're like, what do you want me to pay my bloody bills, like with magic? I know like Disney is running through a theme but I'm not actually living in a Disney film, where I can pay for rent by completing some form of mission or singing a song. Do you know what I mean? Like, I do actually need to work. So yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. And actually having a big name come out and be like, yeah, pay charity people is nice. It is nice. 

Kirsty: And also, his expertise as money, so it even comes with more weight. 

Ben: It's absolute nonsense. I think it can be changed because it doesn't stand up to any kind of logic. There's a really good talk on TED or something like that, where someone basically says, you know, if you really want to work for charity, your best bet is to not work for a charity for the vast majority of your life. Devote your time to something else entirely and then become a trustee. And that's crazy. We all know trustees add huge amounts but the concept of a charity being run, managed, operated entirely by trustees, it's just utterly nonsensical. And I do think at some point in the future, this is going to diminish to nothing because it's not really built on anything that makes sense to people. So fair play to Martin for  pointing out the obvious on media format, which doesn't always do that. 

Greg: Yeah, I think you're right. But I think the minute you started challenging that with anyone, the logic would just crumble, because I think, when you ask them, well who wouldn't you pay? I mean, often they say back office staff. But, you know, if they take a few seconds to think about that, it's like, are we gonna have like nurses working and they're all self organising. They don't do any of the administration and it just sort of happens in the background. Like, yeah, it really doesn't stand up to any kind of analysis. But yeah, it seems to persist and it’s really, really frustrating. 

Fay: I swear to God, people I know, I'm sorry, I don't know why I'm on some Disney trip today. But I swear to Christ, people actually think that Snow White style or like Cinderella, where the birds come in and like clean everything. I swear to God, that is how some people think  charities are run in this country. Oh no, it's not me processing your donation. It’s the magical deer that lives in the corner of this office and just happens to know how to man a financial system. Do you know what I mean? 

Ben: It does sound appealing, though Fay. 

Fay: It does sound appealing, even though I think it would smell quite badly. Anyway, anyway who knows. 

Ben: Just before a dish, and that's the best you’ll get out of that situation.

Greg: Everybody's walking around like eergghhh.  This has got out of hand. 

Fay: This has. This has got out of hand. Welcome to the UK charity sector. No, I am of course I am, of course, joking. But I'm trying to think of another segue here. I don't know how I'm going to connect deer shit to like and finally, but I'm not even going to attempt it. So Greg, what’s our and finally?

Greg: So Anthony Gormley is putting together the UK’s biggest ever exhibition. He's got a call out for everybody and kind of similar to the rainbows and other things that people have been putting in the windows, he's kind of opening it up to do anything that people want to put in their windows or wherever and create an art exhibition across the UK, which I just thought was quite a cool thing. You can't go too far from where you're living and you're kind of walking the same streets to try and get out of your house, it'd be nice to have a little art exhibition along the way.

Kirsty: I think it depends on the art though, right? I mean, I can just imagine some of the questionable things that are gonna go on people's windows.

Greg: Very true, very true.

Fay: I think this is a lovely idea. And I must admit, like, you know, being in the States and sort of seeing all the rainbows for the NHS and stuff and watching that unfold, whilst being in America and kind of dealing with Trump. It was like awww, look, people can be artistic. And it's nice. I know people have different feelings about the NHS rainbow but that's a podcast for another time. But it is, it'll be really yeah, it'd be really cool to kind of see how this unfolds. That's actually all we've got time for. Where the hell has the time gone? Jesus Christ. Thank you for listening, everybody. Kirsty, how was that? I hope we haven't scared you off. I know you've got over 10,000 followers on Twitter. So if you tweet anything negative about us, we're done for really. 

Are we gonna get shorted? Is that what's going to happen? 

Fay: Kirsty’s gonna take us down with one tweet. But yeah, how was that for you, Kirsty and where can people find you online?

Kirsty: I think you give me far much more power than I actually have.  

Fay: Just take it. Just take it. It’s fine. 

Kirsty: I’ll take that. Thank you. Where can they find me online? So I'm on Twitter, Instagram, and now Clubhouse. 

Fay: OMG. 

Kirsty: So we actually ran our first charity lunch and learn today on Clubhouse at 12 o'clock. And it's gonna be a regular feature.

Fay: That's really cool. I just I love kind of seeing how clubhouse has sort of

Greg: It'll be gone in a year.

Fay: I know but I have the worst FOMO. Everyone's like, join me on Clubhouse at seven o'clock. God damn me. I want to know what they’re saying. Let me in. 

Greg: I guarantee it’ll all be these people with these clubhouse accounts just thinking why the bloody hell did I.

Kirsty: Like Vero? Do you remember that? 

Greg: Oh, yeah. What was the other one? Was it like Mastodon or something like that?

Kirsty: Oh I don’t know. 

Fay: See, there we go. Oh, well, it's cool right now and that makes me want to join it. I'll fully buy into a trend. But thank you so much Kirsty for joining us. Listeners, what did you think? We would actually love to hear your thoughts. Please do get in touch on Twitter at Tech for Good Live. You can email us at hello@techforgood.live and we'd love it if you gave us a nice iTunes review and told your mates about the podcast. At the moment, I think our top review’s actually from Bex who is the host of this podcast, so don't read that. Read the ones below it. But never mind. 

Greg: It's probably the worst one as well.

Fay: Yeah, she gave it five stars. I thought she might give it like you know three stars to just piss us off. Plus, as well, she's letting me play host for the day, so I should actually be nicer. Anyway, thank you to podcast.co for hosting us. You can also donate to us as well. We do have a nice big old donate button on our website because you know, we're all volunteers here. 

Greg: Yeah we ain’t getting paid for this shit. 

Fay: Yeah we ain’t getting paid for this shit.  C’mon Martin, where's the support for podcast makers. Anyway, thank you everyone and see you soon.

Greg: Bye

Ben: See you later guys. 

Kirsty: Bye.